Apr 14, 2025 City Council Work Session

[1. CALL TO ORDER]

[00:00:24]

ADVICE FROM THE CITY ATTORNEY OFF AGENDA ITEM HEREIN. THE CITY OF RALL THAT TO COLLIGATIVE SESSION OR ORDER BUSINESS AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO ADJOURNMENT, FOR, FRUSTRATION FORMS AND INSTRUCTIONS AVAILABLE ON THE TABLE DOOR OF THE CITY HALL CONFERENCE ROOM. WE HAVE NO EXECUTIVE SESSION ITEMS THIS EVENING, SO WE WILL MOVE TO ITEM THREE, CITIZEN INPUT. AT THIS TIME, AS WILL BE TAKEN FROM THE AUDIENCE ON ANY TOPIC, NO ACTION CAN BE TAKEN BY THE COUNCIL , AND WE HAVE ANY

[4A. Discuss Dave Holl’s request for return or license agreement for use of 15 ft. right-of way on Miller Road in front of the Kayak Crossing property (6917 Miller Road).]

>> I'M GOING TO ASK DEPUTY MAYOR PRO TEM TO DO THAT,

>> I CAN DO THAT, I WAS INVOLVED IN THIS. I APPRECIATE YOU

BRINGING IT . >> NO PROBLEM. WELL, DAVE BROUGHT IT TO OUR ATTENTION. SO, THIS IS DAVE'S PRESENTATION, NOT MINE, BUT THE REASON I THINK WE SECONDED THIS AGENDA ITEM, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO HAVE THE COUNCIL ALTOGETHER, HERE THE PRESENTATION, WE'VE HEARD THIS OVER AND OVER, DAVE SAYS HE CAN DO ANYTHING, AND I'M FRUSTRATED, AND IN 4021 WAS PARTICULAR ISSUE, BACK WHEN, BEFORE I WAS ON THE COUNCIL, BECAUSE OF THE COUNCIL MEETING, IT WAS IN FEBRUARY OF 2021. AT THAT MEETING, THE COUNCIL SORT OF KIND OF CAME TO A CONSENSUS, SO THINGS NO ACTION TAKEN, AFTER THAT MEETING, BRIAN THUNDERBIRD ASKED ME AND MATT TO MEET WITH DAVE, AND TALK ABOUT SEVERAL DIFFERENT ISSUES, INCLUDING THIS RIGHT-OF-WAY ISSUE. AND WE DID, WE TALKED, WE BOUGHT IT BACK TO BRIAN, RYAN TALKED ABOUT IT, TALKED ABOUT IT WITH DAVID BERMAN. BUT THERE NEVER WAS A RESOLUTION OR AN ANSWER, JUST AN INFORMAL, YOU CAN USE IT TILL YOU CAN'T. SO THAT'S WHY I PUT IT IN THE AGENDA, I THINK THEY DESERVE TO HAVE THE COUNCIL HEAR HIS FULL PRESENTATION, AND DISCUSS IT AMONGST THE COUNCIL, AS YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THE LAWS WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DISCUSS WITH MORE THAN TWO OTHER PEOPLE.

SO I JUST WANTED TO GIVE DAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE HIS DAY

IN COURT WITH US. >> OKAY. I'VE LIVED IN ROWLETT FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS. I ON THE KIA CROSSING OUTPOST, THE KIA CROSSING OUTPOST FOR THE KIA CONSTRUCTION FOUNDATION USE.

THIS IS AN AERIAL OVERVIEW OF KIA CROSSING OUTPOST . IT'S BORDERED BY THE RAILROAD ON THE EAST, POINT PARK BY THE WEST AND MILLER ROAD ON THE SOUTH. PLEASE NOTE THE LARGE CITY OWNED RIGHT-OF-WAY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF MILLER ROAD, SOUTH OF THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST. NOW, I'D LIKE TO SHOW A SMALL SAMPLE OF THE COMMUNITY BENEFITS KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST SPORTS PROGRAM HAVE BROUGHT TO US. THESE PROGRAMS USE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY SPACE. THE PADDLE POINT CREEK TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE TRAIL IS THE SECOND LEG TRAIL IN THE STATE OF TEXAS. THIS MEANT OVER A DECADE AGO WE WERE ONE OF THE LEADERS IN THE STATE. IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY I WAS THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TRAIL.

ADDING ATP WD PADDLING TRAIL BRANDING GIVES ADDITIONAL CREDIBILITY AND ECONOMIC BENEFITS . TP WT IS AN ORGANIZATION YOU WANT TO WORK WITH, FOR ALL THE BENEFITS ,

[00:05:01]

WATERFRONT. >> DAVE, CAN YOU SHOW US WHERE

IT WOULD BE FROM THIS PICTURE? >> I THINK I GOT IT COMING UP AGAIN. BUT I WILL GET TO THAT. BUT, WELL, IT'S FIVE FEET FROM

THE DOOR. >> SO THIS CONCRETE AREA IS

INAUDIBLE ] >> ABOUT 75% OF IT, THE ONLY PART THAT'S NOT IN THE RIGHT OF WAY IS FIVE FEET FROM THE STORE.

FIVE FEET FROM THE WINDOWS AND BRICKS IS ALL THAT I OWN. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE 15 FEET PAST THAT TO THE WROUGHT IRON FENCE. LET'S GO BACK AND LOOK AGAIN AT THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST AREA LOCATION. IT'S BORDERED ON THE EAST BY THE RAILROAD, ON THE WEST BY THE LAKE TO MYSELF BY MILLER ROAD.

THIS WAS AN UNUSABLE .1 ACRE PIECE OF LAND GENERATING LESS THAN $100 OF PROPERTY TAXES AND NO SALES TAX BEFORE I BUILT THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST. THERE IS LOTS OF RIGHT AWAY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF MILLER, IN FRONT OF THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST. THE CITY HAS ACQUIRED ADDITIONAL RIGHT-OF-WAY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF MILLER, TO THE EAST OF THE RAILROAD, WHICH HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED . IT WAS THE CITY THAT CAME TO ME AND ASKED ME TO BUILD THE KAYAK CROSSING ON MY SMALL PIECE OF LAND. I SAID I WAS NOT INTERESTED BASED ON THE NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE I HAD HAD TRYING TO BUILD A SIMILAR FACILITY ON MY PROPERTY ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE RAILROAD. THE CITY AGREED TO MAKE IT EASIER THIS TIME WITH THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST. THERE ARE DOCUMENTS FROM THE THEN CITY MANAGER, MAYOR, PARKS DIRECTOR, AND DEVELOPMENT SERVICES DIRECTOR AGREEING TO A RESERVATION, NOT A DEDICATION OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY. THE CITY RENEGED ON THIS AGREEMENT AFTER I WAS TOO FAR INTO THE PROJECT . THE CITY WOULD NOT ISSUE A BUILDING PERMIT UNTIL I DEDICATED THE 15 FEET OF RIGHT-OF-WAY TO THE CITY. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE AERIAL OVERVIEW OF THE MILLER ROAD BRIDGE, ALONG WITH THE ABILITY TO MOVE THE ROAD AND THE BRIDGE TO THE SOUTH. BY ANY METRIC YOU USE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE NUMBER OF LOOKING FOR A PARKING SPACE, PEOPLE SWIMMING IN THE LAKE, AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL CONSUMED IN THE PARK, NUMBER OF PEOPLE TRESPASSING, TO THE RAILROAD, AND AN OCCASIONAL USER WATCHING FROM POWERPOINT PARK, AND THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST, THEY ARE PROBABLY THE MOST VALUABLE AND OVERUSED PARK LAND AND LOCATION WE HAVE. BY CONSTRUCTING THE MILLER ROAD PHASE THREE TO USE PARTS OF THESE MOST VALUABLE PROPERTIES, WHEN THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO THE SOUTH OF OUR WATERFRONT RESOURCES IS A POOR USE OF OUR WATERFRONT. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE 15 FEET OF RIGHT-OF-WAY BEING REVIEWED TONIGHT. DOES THAT EXPLAIN, HELP? OKAY. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST OF YOU LOOKING FROM THE EAST TO THE WEST, TOWARD THE BRIDGE. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS A SURVEY FOR THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST. YOU CAN ADDITIONALLY SEE THAT THE CITY'S TAKING OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY IN FRONT OF THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST SEVERELY LIMITS THE USE OF THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST. IT'S HARD TO BRING A 14 OR 17 FOOT KAYAK THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR FROM A FIVE FOOT SIDEWALK. THE NEXT SLIDE IS THE PLANNED VIEW OF THE PERFORMANCE PHASE THREE MILLER ROAD PROJECT. IT SHOWS THE ROAD AND BRIDGE CURVING SOUTH. DON'T

[00:10:06]

TONIGHT. EXCUSE ME. >> GO BACK. WHAT'S THE DATE ON THAT? WHEN WAS THAT PUT TOGETHER? WHAT'S THE DATE, WHO,

SPECIFICALLY, DID THAT? >> I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T HAVE

MY BINOCULARS. >> I'LL LOOK.

>> IT'S THE ONLY THING AVAILABLE.

>> 2022. THAT'S ENGINEERING, I GUESS?

>> NO, IT WAS DONE BY PE, NOT THE OUTSIDE, NOT BY STAFF. MOST

OF THE STUFF , >> SO WHO DID IT?

>> I BELIEVE IT WAS HEWITT, BUT WHAT'S THE SEAL SAY?

>> WHO PAID TO HAVE THIS DONE? WAS THIS SOMETHING THE CITY DID

OR SOMETHING YOU DID? >> THE CITY DID IT.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET.

>> OKAY. NEXT SLIDE UP THERE. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE ENGINEERED STORM PROFILE OF THE PHASE THREE IN GREATER DETAIL.

IT SHOWS THE ROAD AND BRIDGE CURVING SOUTH AWAY OF THE KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST, IT ALSO SHOWS THE NEW MILLER ROAD SERVICE IS NOT PLANNED TO BE BUILT , I THINK I ALREADY READ THAT. DID

WE ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS? >> I DID, IT WAS MORE WHO AND

WHAT. I UNDERSTAND. >> I HAD TO STUMBLE AROUND WITH RECORD REQUESTS TO GET THIS, IT'S BEEN OUT THERE, AND THE PLANS HAVE BEEN OUT THERE. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE COUNCIL APPROVED ORDINANCE, 003-18, IT REQUIRES THE CITY TO ISSUE A LICENSE ALLOWING ME TO USE THE 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY, AND ON THE LEFT IN THAT PINK, READING IT, THE DEVELOPMENT STANDARDS AND REGULATION SET FORTH IN EXHIBIT D, THE TEXT HERETO, SHALL BE APPLICABLE TO LAND-USE STRUCTURES, AND DEVELOPMENT CONSTRUCTION OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE OF IMPROVEMENTS ON THE PROPERTY DESCRIBED HEREIN, THEN YOU GO OVER TO EXHIBIT D, WHICH IS ON THE RIGHT, AND HIGHLIGHTED. 15 FOOT RIGHT OF WAY FOR THE FUTURE EXPANSION OF MILLER ROAD IS DEDICATED, SUBJECT TO THE CITY PROVIDING A LICENSE FOR THE USE OF THE RIGHT OF WAY UNTIL THE CITY USES THE NECESSARY RIGHT OF WAY, THIS IS THE COMPROMISE WE CAME UP TO AFTER THE CITY RENEGED ON THE RESERVATION. THIS WAS PASSED BY CITY COUNCIL, APPROVED BY CITY COUNCIL, AND SIGNED BY THE CITY ON FAIRBURY SIXTH, 2018. YOU

WANT TO GO BACK? >> WHY DON'T YOU JUST, I MEAN, I KNOW WHAT I THINK. IF YOU WOULD, VERBALIZE WHAT THAT MEANS

TO YOU. HOW DO YOU READ THAT. >> VERY CLEARLY, THIS IS WHAT IT MEANT TO THE CITY WHEN WE NEGOTIATED IT, WAS, SINCE THEY WEREN'T GOING TO HONOR THE RESERVATION, THEY SAID, WE'LL PUT A LICENSE AGREEMENT TOGETHER, I GUESS A LICENSE AGREEMENT IS A FORMAL DOCUMENT, BUT, THAT WOULD ALLOW ME TO USE THAT SPACE EXCLUSIVELY, FOR MY OPERATIONS, UNTIL THE CITY NEEDED IT FOR THE WIDENING OF MILLER ROAD.

>> SO, THIS DOES ADDRESS , YOU AGREE, THIS ADDRESSES THAT IF THE CITY NEEDED THAT PARCEL TO WIDEN OUT, THE LAYOUT OF THE MILLER STREET BRIDGE, THAT THIS IS THAT COMBINATION, IS THAT

CORRECT? >> THAT WAS THE ACCOMMODATION WE CAME TO. IT WAS ESTIMATED AT THAT TIME THAT THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN FOR 10, 20, 30 YEARS. BUT, MAYBE YOU MIGHT KNOW MORE

THAN I DO. >> I DON'T.

>> DID YOU GET THAT LICENSE AGREEMENT?

>> LET ME GO TO THE NEXT SLIDE, I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT WE CAME UP WITH. OKAY. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE DOCUMENT STAFF AND THE CITY ATTORNEY DEVELOPED FOR THE LICENSE AGREEMENT. YOU CAN SEE THE CITY STAFF CONFERRING WITH THE CITY ATTORNEY, THIS IS WHAT THEY SAID WOULD GIVE ME THE RIGHT TO CITY COUNCIL APPROVED.

ANY QUESTIONS, READY FOR THE NEXT SLIDE?

>> THAT'S AN APPLICATION, THAT'S NOT

>> I'LL SHOW YOU THE NEXT SLIDE. OKAY, THE NEXT SLIDE

[00:15:03]

AGREED WITH COUNCIL. >> DO YOU HAVE EXHIBIT A THAT

ACCOMPANIED YOUR APPLICATION? >> THAT IS IT, RIGHT THERE, BOTH

OF THOSE. >> NO. IN YOUR APPLICATION, YOU WRITE, PLEASE SEE EXHIBIT A, WHAT'S ON THE RIGHT IS THE PERMIT. YOU HAVE THE COPY OF EXHIBIT A THAT ACCOMPANIED YOUR

APPLICATION? >> THE DETAILED DIAGRAM.

>> I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT ONE. NOW.

>> I WAS JUST CURIOUS. WHEN I LOOK AT THE LICENSE AGREEMENT, AND THE SCOPE OF WORK, RIGHT-OF-WAY, REPLACEMENT OF OUTDOOR FURNITURE. AND YET THERE IS NOW A CONCRETE PAD THAT'S BEEN POURED OUT INTO THE RIGHT-OF-WAY. AND SO, DID YOU, DID YOUR DESCRIPTION , IN EXHIBIT A, INCLUDE THE CONCRETE PAD? WHAT WAS, WHAT WAS WITHIN SCOPE? BECAUSE THE PERMIT ALLOWS

OUTDOOR FURNITURE. >> THE CONCRETE PAD WAS PART OF THE ORDINANCE, AND I ONLY BROUGHT THOSE TWO PAGES BUT IT HAD BUILDING, HAVE THE CONCRETE PAD, HAD THE PARKING SPACES, ALL OF THAT SHOULD BE OUT THERE. BECAUSE THAT WAS INCLUDED IN THEIR FIVE, SIX, SEVEN PARKING SPACES, AND THAT CONCRETE WAS ON THE APPLICATION, AND WHAT WAS APPROVED, THE PLANS THAT THE CITY ISSUED THE BUILDING CODE FOR EVENTUALLY. AND ALL THAT, ALL THAT CAME TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME, BECAUSE THE CITY WOULDN'T ISSUE A BUILDING PERMIT UNTIL THIS WAS DONE, THE FLAG WAS I GUESS REGISTERED WITH THE COUNTY.

>> SO, DID THIS PERMIT CONSTITUTE A LICENSE AGREEMENT? THAT DOES GIVE HIM A LICENSE TO PLACE OUTDOOR FURNITURE IN OUR RIGHT OF WAY. AND THAT'S ALL IT DOES, AS FAR --

>> THAT'S BETWEEN THE FENCE AND THE CONCRETE, THAT 15 FEET.

>> I CAN'T SAY. I HAVEN'T SURVEYED IT,

>> ROUGHLY. WHEREVER THE RIGHT-OF-WAY IS DETERMINED.

>> WE'LL HAVE A SURVEY COMING UP THAT WILL HELP ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS, MAYBE ALL YOUR QUESTIONS.

>> SO, DAVE, I PULLED THE ORDINANCE, THAT YOU REFERENCED.

AND THERE'S AN EXHIBIT B ATTACHED TO THE ORDINANCE, IT'S THE PLANNED DEVELOPMENT STANDARDS FOR THE PROPERTY. THIS OBVIOUSLY HAD TO BE APD BECAUSE THE NATURE OF THE SITE. SETBACKS FOR NONRESIDENTIAL USES, FIVE FEET FROM MILLER ROAD RIGHT-OF-WAY. THAT'S THE SETBACK FOR THE STRUCTURE. AND THEN IT ALSO SAYS THAT FIVE FOOT SIDEWALKS ARE REQUIRED TO BE CONSTRUCTED ON THE WEST SIDE AND THE SOUTH SIDE OF ANY NEW CONSTRUCTION ON THE SITE. SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS BIGGER THAN THE FIVE FOOT WIDE SIDEWALK THOUGH, RIGHT TO MARK ITS LARGER THAN

FIVE FEET? ON THE SOUTH SIDE. >> YES, IT IS. WHEN WE PUT THAT TOGETHER, THE SIDEWALK WAS AT THE EXTREME EDGE OF IT, AND THEN DEVELOPMENT SERVICES SAID, YOU'VE GOT THIS WHOLE BETWEEN YOUR BUILDING AND THE SIDEWALK, WE DON'T LIKE HOLES LIKE THAT WITH GRASS OR SOMETHING, THEY PUT CONCRETE IN TO THE WHOLE

THING. >> SO YOU HAD A SIDEWALK FURTHER SET AWAY FROM THE BUILDING IN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, AND IN A GRASSY AREA BETWEEN THE BUILDING, AND THAT PROPOSED SIDEWALK AND DEVELOPMENT SERVICES SAID FILL THAT IN AND MAKE IT ONE BIG CONCRETE PAD. AND MY UNDERSTANDING THAT

CORRECTLY? >> THAT TOOK PLACE FOR A PORTION OF IT, I THINK DEVELOPMENT SERVICES ONE OF THE SIDEWALK ALSO TO BE ON MY PORTION, NOT NECESSARILY ON THE RIGHT OF WAY, BUT I DO REMEMBER THAT THEY SAID, FILL IN THE HOLES, BECAUSE THE BUILDING IS NOT AT A RIGHT ANGLE WITH ,

>> IT DOESN'T RUN PARALLEL TO THE PROPERTY LINE. IT SITS AT A

LITTLE BIT OF AN ANGLE. OKAY. >> AND THE REASON --

>> WHEN THE SIDEWALK, THE CONCRETE PAD

>> I MEAN, ALL OF IT WAS POURED TOGETHER, WHEN WE POUR THE CONCRETE. I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT DATE, BUT IT WAS THE

CONSTRUCTION. >> AND SOMETHING YOU SAID EARLIER, WE WERE LOOKING AT THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE BUILDING, YOU GOT THE PAD YOU POURED, YOU GOT THE GRASS, THE IRON FENCE, DID I

[00:20:03]

OUT. OKAY. >> THAT SURVEY I THINK WILL ANSWER THAT BETTER. COMING UP. BUT, THE EXHIBIT A I HAVE BACK AT MY HOUSE, I'M SORRY I DIDN'T BRING THAT ALONG WITH

ME. >> WOULD YOU BACKUP ONE SLIDE? THAT'S NOT IT. MAYBE ONE. WHERE DO YOU HAVE EXHIBIT D? YEAH.

OKAY. OKAY, THANK YOU. >> CAN YOU DESCRIBE BRIEFLY WHAT

THE CONTENTS ARE OF EXHIBIT A? >> I BELIEVE IT'S SHOWING THE FENCE, I BELIEVE, AND , GOING AROUND THE BORDER OF THE 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY, THE AREA THAT THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT WAS SUPPOSED

TO GIVE ME ACCESS TO >> PEOPLE HERE HAVE COMPUTERS, CAN THEY NOT PULL THAT EXHIBIT A?

>> I MEAN, THAT WOULD BE EXHIBIT A THAT ACCOMPANIED HIS APPLICATION. I DON'T, I MEAN, THAT'S A STAFF QUESTION, STILL SOMETHING GOOD THAT COULD BE ACCESSED OR NOT. BUT THIS IS NOW

SEVEN YEARS OLD. ROUGHLY. >> I'LL GET TO THAT LATER, HOW MANY BOXES OF DOCUMENTS I HAVE, THIS HAS BEEN A DOCUMENT

PROCESS. >> OKAY, THANKS. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ON EITHER THIS ORDINANCE , I'LL LET YOU GO ON, JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE BUT IN THIS PART UP, ON THIS ORDINANCE OR THE APPLICATION AND PERMIT? OKAY, LET'S GO ON.

>> OKAY, ON THIS DOCUMENT, I SPECIFICALLY WROTE IN THE PERMANENCE OF THIS AGREEMENT TO AVOID FUTURE PROBLEMS LIKE THIS.

THE CURRENT CITY MANAGER WHO SAID THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT MEET THE STANDARDS FOR LICENSE AGREEMENT, SO I HAVE NO RIGHT TO USE THIS 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY. THE NEXT SLIDE SHOWS TWO OPTIONS TO FIX THE PROBLEM. HOWEVER, LET'S HOLD OFF AND REVIEW A COUPLE MORE POINTS BEFORE WE COME BACK TO THIS. THE NEXT SLIDE I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU IS A THREE MINUTE VIDEO, TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE PRODUCED ON THE PADDLING TRAIL, CAN YOU BRING

THAT UP? >> IS THERE VOLUME?

>> JUST FROM THE TREES, THERE. >> ABOUT SIX MILES THAT WE CAN PADDLE ON HERE, AS LONG OR AS SHORT AS YOU WANT.

>> AT THIS TIME IT IS SO COMFORTABLE OUT HERE. BLUE HERON.

OF PEOPLE FROM THE FORT WORTH AREA COME OVER HERE, A LOT OF PEOPLE TRAVEL TO VISIT THIS SPOT.

>> PAST THE RAILROAD BRIDGE. OVER THE YEARS I'VE HAD A CHANCE TO PADDLE ALL OVER NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA. THE MOST FUN NOW IS RIGHT HERE. THE BRIDGE IS GREAT, THIS TIME IN THE MORNING, WE'RE GOING TO PADDLE TO WHERE THE OLD MAINSTREAM IDEAS. A PORTION OF IT. SO, THIS IS MAIN STREET BRALETTE.

FAMILIES, WHEN WE GET STARTED, OUT HERE WITH NATURE.

[00:25:03]

>> YOU ALL BETTER SLOW DOWN FOR THE OLD GUY.

>> SLOW DOWN AND I'M GLAD YOU HAVE SHOWN ME THIS AREA, AND THE STRESS IN AN OPEN

LAKE. >> I KNOW YOU'VE SEEN THAT ONE

MORE THAN ONCE. >> OKAY. NEXT SLIDE SHOWS WHAT SOME OF MY CUSTOMERS ARE EXPERIENCING AT OUR FACILITY.

I'LL READ ONE OF THEM. THE BEST CUSTOMER SERVICE EVER, AMAZING PEOPLE, BEAUTIFUL VIEWS, FISHING IS ALSO LOVELY. YOU CAN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE IT, THANK YOU TO THE MAN I WAS SPEAKING WITH TODAY. OVERALL, THE MOST SWEETEST, DOWN

TO EARTH OLD MAN I'VE EVER MET. >> I DON'T THINK IT SAYS OLD MAN. I THINK YOU'RE EXAGGERATING THAT.

>> THE TRUTH ON THIS, I TALKED TO JEFF EARLIER, AND FULL TRANSPARENCY, I SAID JEFF, WOULD IT BE APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO READ ANY OF THESE CUSTOMER FEEDBACK? AND I MENTIONED OLD MAN AND JEFF SAID, IF IT SAYS OLD MAN, OF COURSE WE CAN DO THAT, SO

THERE'S THE OLD MAN. >> LET'S HEAR WHAT HE SAID, INAUDIBLE ] I HAVE ONE MORE THAT'S NOT ADVERTISING, I'LL LEAVE THAT ONE BEHIND, BUT THIS SHOWS YOU WHAT THE CUSTOMERS ARE EXPERIENCING IN ROWLETT WITH OUR PROGRAM. DAVE WAS VERY HELPFUL AND MADE WRITING THE KAYAK A BREEZE, WITHIN 10 MINUTES WE WERE ON THE WATER PADDLING. AND OF COURSE, THE FOUR LEGGED FRIEND WAS SUPERFAMILY, OVERALL SUPER FRIENDLY SERVICE, WE NEED MORE BUSINESSES LIKE THIS. THIS IS PRETTY TYPICAL OF WHAT WE'RE DOING OVER THERE, AT PADDLE POINT PARK. AND NOW, LET'S GO BACK TO THE CONCLUSION, HERE. AND, WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF OPTIONS AT THIS STAGE. OPTION ONE, YOU CAN RETURN THE 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY TO ME, THE ORIGINAL OWNER, AND I HOPE I'VE MADE A GOOD ENOUGH CASE SHOWING THAT THAT'S WHAT THE AGREEMENTS WERE. OPTION TWO, YOU CAN ISSUE THE LICENSE AGREEMENT, WHICH IS NOW SEVEN YEARS LATE, AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THE CITY HAS SHOWN THE LICENSE AGREEMENT, EVEN WHEN REQUESTED AND APPROVED BY CITY COUNCIL MIGHT NOT BE HONORED BY STAFF. OR THE CITY.

IN CONCLUSION, THERE IS OVER A DECADE OF EMAILS AND DOCUMENTS FROM THE CITY SURROUNDING THIS PROBLEM. I'VE TRIED TO KEEP THIS PRESENTATION SHORT, CONCISE, AND RELATIVELY EASY TO UNDERSTAND. THAT'S WHY I DON'T HAVE MORE, BUT I DO HAVE IT AT HOME. AND I HOPE WE CAN GET THROUGH THAT TONIGHT SO WE CAN MOVE THIS ON, BECAUSE, IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO RESTORE MY PROPERTY RIGHTS TO THIS PROPERTY, I WILL BE BACK COMMUNICATING WITH THE NEW ELECTED OFFICIALS AFTER THE MAY ELECTION. PLEASE DON'T LEAVE THIS ON THEIR DOORSTEP. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? WHAT CAN I DO.

>> BEFORE WE GET INTO COMMENTS, ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT DAVE'S PRESENTATION, OR THE ISSUE FOR DAVE SPECIFICALLY.

>> WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO DO WITH THAT, IN THE LICENSE AGREEMENT, WHAT ARE THE IMPROVEMENTS YOU ARE GOING TO DO IN THOSE SPOTS,

IF WE DO A LICENSE AGREEMENT. >> IS NOT NECESSARILY JUST,

>> I'M ASKING DAVE. >> RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A COUPLE PICNIC TABLES ON THERE, THAT WE USE WITH EDUCATION, GROUPS STAGING TO GET READY. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS, I'M BIG ON

[00:30:06]

>> AND SERVICES, PAVING IT, ANYTHING LIKE THAT, IS THAT WHAT

I UNDERSTAND? >> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

>> THE QUESTION. >> THE QUESTION -- THE ANSWER, WE'RE TRYING TO BREAK THIS DOWN SO IT DOESN'T GET TOO COMPLICATED, IN THIS PROCESS, IN THE PD YOU CAN LOOK THROUGH IT, THE ENGINEERING PLANS, THERE WAS AN EMERGENCY DRIVE THAT WAS AN APPROVED, WHICH WOULD ALLOW CIRCULAR FLOW, THROUGH MY STORE AND ALLEVIATE SOME OF THE TRAFFIC AT PADDLE POINT PARK, AFTER WE TAKE CARE OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, I WOULD LIKE TO BRING THE CIRCULAR DRIVE, THIS DRIVE BACK TO MILLER ROAD, AND I HESITATE TO BRING TOO MUCH UP BECAUSE THIS GETS REALLY CONFUSING FOR EVERYBODY, AND I WANT TO TELL YOU, I'M NOT THE ONE WHO SET THE STRUCTURE ON THIS, I'M JUST THE TAIL BEING

WHACKED. SO, >> IT'S REALLY JUST ABOUT FUTURE LAND USE. ALL THE OTHER STUFF ASIDE.

>> THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD BE PAVED IN THE FUTURE IS IF THE CITY GETS THE PERMIT, WHICH WAS PROMISED, TO PUT THAT DRIVE WAY GOING OUT TO MILLER ROAD, ALL THE ENGINEERING STUDIES, THE LINE OF SIGHT, ALL THAT HAS BEEN DONE AND APPROVED.

>> AND NOTHING IN HERE DISCUSSES A DRIVEWAY, DOES IT?

>> I LEFT THAT OUT SPECIFICALLY. IT WILL CONFUSE,

>> IT MAY CONFUSE BUT, MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING, IT MAY CONFUSE THINGS BUT IT CERTAINLY CHANGES THINGS, TOO. IT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE BEING PRESENTED HERE, IF THAT'S NOW BECOMING A DRIVE OUT TO MILLER ROAD.

>> ALL THE STUFF, THE PLANS, YOU CAN SEE IT.

>> IS INDICATED, RELATED TO THAT, WOULD BE, DOES THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, DEDICATED RESERVE WHATEVER, TO MR. HOLL FOR HIM TO INSTALL A DRIVEWAY SHOULD ONE BE APPROVED?

>>

>> SHORT ANSWER IS, THE PD SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITS ACCESS FROM MILLER ROAD. WE WILL DO THIS, AND I DON'T WANT TO INTERRUPT THE QUESTIONING SESSION, BUT I DO WANT TO PROVIDE STAFF'S PERSPECTIVE A LITTLE BIT, IF WE DISAGREE, NOT AT ALL. I THINK THERE'S CONSUMPTIVE SEXUAL DIFFERENCES.

FIRST OF ALL, I NEVER SAID THIS WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR A LICENSING AGREEMENT, IT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR AN AGREEMENT OR WHAT DAVE WANTED TO DO. IN FACT, CHRISTOPH AND I LOOKED AT THIS SOBERLY, DAVE SENT ME INFORMATION. LET ME, TELL ME

WHEN TO STOP. >> I APPRECIATE , THAT FEEDBACK REALLY HELPS, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, I'M THINKING OF A RESIDENTIAL HOME. THERE'S MANY FRONT DRIVE HOMES THAT HAVE A DRIVEWAY THAT LEADS ONTO THE STREET, STILL A RIGHT-OF-WAY EXISTS, THERE'S STILL A DRIVEWAY, IF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY IS NEITHER HERE NOR THERE AS IT RELATES TO THIS DRIVE, THEN LET'S SET THAT OFF TO THE SIDE, I DON'T THINK IT'S GERMANE TO THE CONVERSATION RIGHT NOW. LET'S TALK SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY. ONE OF THE QUESTIONS COUNSELED DO YOU HAVE FOR DAVE WITH REGARD TO THE PRESENTATION? THEN WE'LL MOVE TO QUESTIONS FOR STAFF. JUST TO KEEP THIS SOMEWHAT ORDERLY.

>> JUST TO CONFIRM, THE 15 FOOT IS EVERYTHING INSIDE THE IRON FENCE. THE IRON FENCE TO THE BUILDING, CORRECT?

>> 15 FEET FROM THE IRON FENCE. THE EDGE OF THE 15 FOOT ALL THE WAY. I DON'T THINK THAT'S QUITE CORRECT. HE HAS THE FIVE

FOOT SETBACK. >> HERE'S THE SURVEY. GO TO THE PICTURE. THE PICTURE IS EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.

>> THAT'S THE WRONG DIRECTION, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THE SURVEY

[00:35:03]

TONIGHT TO MAKE SURE. >> IT GOES DOWN AGAIN, WHERE IF I HAD THE FIVE FEET OR SIX OR WHATEVER IT IS, BASED ON THE ANGLES, IT MAKES THE STORE MUCH MORE UNUSABLE, TAKING BOTH IN AND OUT. IT'S LIKE STICKING A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLL.

>> CAN YOU GO BACK TO THE SATELLITE VIEW? IF YOU DON'T MIND. THINK IT MIGHT BE THE OTHER DIRECTION, THE ONE YOU SHOWED FIRST. BEFORE THOSE STREET IMAGES. I THINK WE'RE GOING -- NO. THE OTHER DIRECTION. SORRY.

>> I THINK THAT'S -- >> YOU MAY BE RIGHT, MAYBE IT'S

THE ENGINEERING SURVEY. >> BY NOW YOU SHOULD KNOW MY

PRESENTATION BETTER THAN ME. >> THERE WE GO. SO, THE FIVE FOOT, IS FROM THE BUILDING THAT'S REDLINE, BUT THEN THIS IS THE 15 FEET, FROM THE REDLINE OF THE FENCE. SO, THERE'S ACTUALLY A ROUGHLY 20 FOOT DISTANCE BETWEEN YOUR BUILDING AND THE END OF THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, THE FENCE.

>> YES. >> IT'S JUST NOT ALL CONCRETE.

>> PART OF THE CONCRETE IS IN THE EXISTING RIGHT-OF-WAY.

>> CORRECT. >> AND THE RIGHT-OF-WAY IS INSIDE THE FENCE. CORRECT? OUR RIGHT-OF-WAY IS INSIDE HIS

FENCE? >> THE RIGHT-OF-WAY IS OUTSIDE MY FENCE, TOO, BUT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY IS INSIDE

THE FENCE. >> I KNOW YOU TALKED ABOUT THE USE OF THE SIDEWALK, BUT TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE HANDICAP PARKING SPACE YOU HAVE THAT'S PARTIALLY IN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY AS WELL AS THE OTHER TWO PARKING SPACES THAT ARE TO THE SOUTHEAST

CORNER OF THIS TRAFFIC. >> THOSE WERE REQUIRED BY DEVELOPMENT SERVICES, FOR A.D.A. USE, AND IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE EXCESS, FROM PADDLE POINT PARK, IT'S TOO STEEP FOR ANY A.D.A. ACCESS, THOSE ARE GREAT QUESTIONS. I THINK THIS BUILDING IS BUILT TO WHAT THE CITY REQUIRED ME TO BUILD, AND DIDN'T GIVE ME LATITUDE TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S A.D.A. ACCESSIBLE. NONE OF THE VETERANS, THE PARAPLEGICS, PEOPLE IN WHEELCHAIRS, USE THAT . BUT I PUT IT IN THERE BECAUSE I WAS TOLD TO.

>> SO IT LOOKS LIKE FROM THIS GRAPHIC, THE WATER SITS INSIDE YOUR IRON FENCE AS WELL. THAT BLACK DOT.

>> I BELIEVE THAT'S CORRECT, YES, SIR.

>> SO, HOW, IF STAFF NEEDS TO ACCESS YOUR METER, TO DO A CHANGE OUT, LET'S SAY, IS THE EXPECTATION THEY WOULD ARRANGE THAT WITH YOU IN ADVANCE? BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO WAY TO GET ONTO YOUR PROPERTY. INTO THE RIGHT-OF-WAY TO MAKE THIS

CHANGE. >> THIS IS HOW STUFF GETS BUILT IN ROWLETT, YOU FOLLOW THE RULES. BUT I LEAVE THE GATE OPEN, THERE'S A GATE UP THERE AT THE VERY TOP, FROM THE DRIVE THAT'S TOO STEEP FOR THE A.D.A. ACCESS, I'LL LEAVE THE GATE OPEN SO CUSTOMERS CAN COME THROUGH THEIR 24 HOURS A DAY, AND GIVE ME A CALL IF THEY NEED TO, SO THERE'S ALWAYS ACCESS TO THAT AREA, AND I DON'T KNOW WHY THE CITY, I THINK YOU KNOW THERE'S A REGULATION THAT WATER METERS HAVE TO BE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE, BUT, THAT'S WHERE IT IS.

>> IT IS IN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM VERY ACCESSIBLE GIVEN ITS LOCATION RELATIVE TO YOUR FENCE. OKAY, WHAT ARE THE QUESTIONS FOR DAVE? OKAY, LET'S ASK QUESTIONS OF STAFF NOW AT THIS POINT? DAVE, IF YOU'D LIKE TO HEAD OFF,

>> IF YOU DON'T MIND. >> DAVE AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES WITH THIS PROPERTY THAT YOU HEARD ME ALLUDE TO. I DON'T THINK WE'RE TRYING TO SOLVE THEM ALL AND DISCUSS THEM TONIGHT, BUT, LET'S SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS THE 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY, DAVE APPROACHED ME ABOUT IT, AND SAID THE CITY SHOULD RETURN IT. I THINK THAT IN SOMEONE SAYING IN A LEGAL CONTEXT. DAVID REQUIRED TO DEDICATE HIS 15 FEET OF RIGHT-OF-WAY, WE ALL AGREE ON THAT. WE DON'T AGREE THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE A LICENSE. HE DOES. THAT DOCUMENT, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, IS A LICENSE TO DO WHAT IT SAYS. I'M NOT AWARE OF THE CITY GIVING DAVE A HARD TIME ABOUT THE CURRENT USE ABOUT 15 FEET RIGHT-OF-WAY. I AM UNAWARE.

OUR ARGUMENT HAS BEEN, THERE IS NO MECHANISM THAT WOULD REQUIRE THE RETURN, MEANING, THE RETURN OF THE DEDICATED RIGHT-OF-WAY TO DAVE. THAT'S WHAT I'M UNDERSTANDING AS THE REQUEST.

[00:40:03]

NO ONE IS TAKING ANY ACTION AGAINST ALL OF THE STUFF THAT YOU SEE IN THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, UNLESS THEY ARE AND I DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT. WHICH IS POSSIBLE.

>> LET'S GET AN ANSWER ON THAT. HAS ANYONE FROM THE CITY APPROACHED YOU WITHIN, LET'S SAY, THE LAST 12 MONTHS ABOUT EITHER A RETURN OF THAT RIGHT-OF-WAY, OR A DEMOLITION OF

ANY OF YOUR EXISTING ASSETS? >> WITHIN THE LAST 12 MONTHS, NO, HOWEVER TALKING WITH DAVID, DAVID HAS INDICATED TO ME THAT I DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS TO THE RIGHT OF WAY, AND THIS IS, THIS IS MUCH CLEARER NOW WHEN DAVID SAYS THERE IS A LICENSE AGREEMENT, BECAUSE, WHAT I READ THROUGH HEAR FROM DAVE WAS, I WILL HAVE TO REVIEW THE RECORD FOR THE APPLICATION, AND REFERENCING EXHIBIT A WHICH I BELIEVE IS THE PERMIT THAT WE HAD ON THE RIGHT SIDE, THE GREEN ONE, WHICH YOU NOT INCLUDED BUT IT WAS INCLUDED IN PRIOR EMAILS THAT WERE AS ATTACHMENTS, BUT, THEY GIVE ME A STARTING POINT. THAT SAID, ON THE APPLICATION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE CITY GRANTING THE RIGHTS OR OTHERWISE, WE DO NOT HAVE AN AFFIRMATIVE OBLIGATION TO REFUTE SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU WROTE IT, BUT THIS GIVES ME A STARTING POINT TO BEGIN TO HAVE STAFF RESEARCH.

>> SO LET ME, IF I COULD. YOU'RE TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT. DAVE AND I HAVE HAD ITERATIVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THIS TOPIC.

SO, I DID WRITE THAT, WHEN HE HADN'T PROVIDED SUFFICIENT INFORMATION. IN JANUARY, MAYBE LATE DECEMBER, DAVE SENT A PACKET OF INFORMATION. I REVIEWED IT, AND REACHED A CONCLUSION. BUT I SAID I'M GOING TO GO FURTHER, I SAID CHRISTOPH REVIEWED THIS AND DRAFT UP YOUR CONCLUSIONS. THEY WERE COMPLETELY ALIGNED. AND THE CONCLUSIONS ARE, THE PD, THERE IS , NUMBER ONE, THE PD EXPLICITLY STATES THAT HE COULDN'T HAVE ACCESS OFF OF MILLER. NUMBER TWO, WE BOTH AGREE, HE'S GOT A LICENSE TO USE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR THE THINGS STATED IN THAT APPLICATION. AND THE PERMIT. AND SO, THERE WAS A TIME WHERE THERE WASN'T SUFFICIENT INFORMATION TO MAKE A FINAL CONCLUSION. WE SENT DAVE THIS EMAIL JANUARY 23RD, 2025. HE RESPONDED TO IT, SO I KNOW YOU RECEIVED IT, AND I WAS GOING TO SEND IT TO THE COUNCIL, I THOUGHT YOU HAD BEEN COPIED. BECAUSE I DISCOVERED YOU HADN'T BEEN I DIDN'T WANT ANYONE TO FEEL LIKE I WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF THIS AFTER THE FACT. I WILL SEND IT TO YOU WHEN THIS MEETING IS DONE. BUT WE VERY CLEARLY LAY OUT THAT THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT THE CITY HAS AN OBLIGATION TO RETURN 15 FEET OF DEDICATED RIGHT-OF-WAY, AND THAT YOU, IN FACT, HAVE A LICENSE TO USE THAT 15 FEET FOR THE PURPOSES EXPRESSED IN THAT APPLICATION. I THINK WE'RE EXCEEDINGLY CLEAR, HERE. SO I DIDN'T FEEL, AND THAT'S WHY WHEN YOU RESPONDED, I DIDN'T RESPOND ANYMORE, I'VE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL OF YOU WHO'VE ASKED ABOUT THIS, AND GIVEN YOU SOME OF THE CONTENTS OF THIS EMAIL. THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY FOR THE CITY THAT DAVE HAS THE ABILITY TO USE THAT 15 FEET.

THERE MAY HAVE BEEN, BUT THERE ISN'T, AND HASN'T BEEN WITH ABSOLUTE CLARITY FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, SINCE JANUARY, UNQUESTIONABLY. WE SENT AN EMAIL STATING SUCH. THAT'S DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT, HOWEVER, THEN SAYING THE CITY HAS AN OBLIGATION TO RETURN DEDICATED RIGHT-OF-WAY TO SOMEONE WHO FILED FOR DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION AND DEVELOPED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PD. THAT, WE DO NOT AGREE IS AN OBLIGATION OF THE CITY AND WE FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF SUCH.

>> I THINK THAT'S WHY DAVE IS HERE. THE CITY HAS AN OBLIGATION, BUT HE'S REQUESTING IT. OR, ALTERNATIVELY, A LICENSE AGREEMENT THAT I THINK WOULD COVER MORE THAN JUST PUTTING

FURNITURE . >> WE'VE CLEARLY ALLOWED MORE

THAN JUST FURNITURE. >> I UNDERSTAND, THAT'S ALL IT SAYS, SOMEBODY ELSE COULD COME ALONG ,

>> HE CAN FILE AN APPLICATION AND WE WOULD GLADLY PROCESS IT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF THE PD WHICH ARE FAIRLY LOOSE WITH THE ALLOWANCE OF DAVE'S PRACTICES UNTIL THE CITY EXPANDS ITS RIGHT-OF-WAY. NONE OF THAT HAS BEEN REQUESTED.

>> IF I WAS HIM I WOULD BE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT, WITH SOMETHING THAT EXPLICITLY GIVES ME THE USES THAT I'M USING IT FOR. RATHER THAN TO JUST HAVE A, WELL, YOU CAN USE IT AND WE HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING, BUT, LIKE I SAID, WHAT IF YOU GET HIT BY A TRUCK AND THEN CHRISTOPH IS THE CITY MANAGER AND HE DOESN'T

WANT. >> CHRISTOPH DRAFTED HIM UP TO YOUR POINT, WE DIDN'T CREATE ANY OF THIS, WE ARE SIMPLY INTERPRETING THE INFORMATION. HE COULD VERY WELL APPLY FOR AN APPLICATION. I DON'T THINK WE'VE SAID THAT, I DON'T THINK

[00:45:01]

UNQUESTIONABLY HE COULD APPLY FOR THAT, THE PD IS CLEAR HE'S ENTITLED TO RIGHT-OF-WAY USAGE. THERE IS NO QUESTION. AND WE WERE CLEAR ON THAT FACT IN THE EMAIL IN JANUARY.

>> I DON'T RECALL BEING CLEAR ON THAT IN THAT EMAIL.

>> HERE'S THE EMAIL, I'LL SEND IT ALL TO YOU. WE QUOTE THE

ORDINANCE. >> WHAT I REMEMBER, THERE WAS A HIGHLIGHTED PART AND IT SAID SOMETHING ABOUT, WITH THE ISSUING OF THE LICENSE, AND I WAS LIKE, WELL WHERE IS THE LICENSE? I DON'T SEE THE LICENSE. I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THAT THE PERMIT WAS THE LICENSE. AND I THINK THAT A CLAIM PLAINLY READ DOCUMENT, THIS IS THE LICENSE FOR YOU TO USE THIS, WOULD BE CERTAINLY THE WAY TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE.

>> RIGHT-OF-WAY MEANS PERMITS ARE A LICENSE IT'S A TERMINOLOGY DIFFERENCE. FOR ME, YOU COULD DRAFT A WHOLE AGREEMENT, BUT THE CITY ISSUES AND EVERY CITY ISSUES RIGHT-OF-WAY PERMIT LICENSES. THROUGH THAT PROCESS.

>> I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT BEING A PERMIT.

IT'S VERY SPECIFIC . IT'S JUST FURNITURE.

>> I THINK MR. HOLES POINT IN HIS EMAIL THAT HE SENT YOU ABOUT WHAT'S INCLUDED AND NOT INCLUDED IS YOU SENT IN THE APPLICATION, AND SAID HERE'S MY APPLICATION WHETHER EXHIBIT A WAS INCLUDED OR NOT, WHAT'S ON THE APPLICATION IS JUST WHAT'S ON THE APPLICATION, IT'S WHAT'S ON THE PERMIT THAT MATTERS. THAT'S WHAT THE SPACE WAS ALLOWED TO BE USED FOR, AND AS WAS MENTIONED, WE'VE ALLOWED YOU TO GO IN EXCESS OF THAT BY HAVING PAVEMEN ON THAT SPACE, AND A FENCE AND SOME OTHER THINGS THAT WEREN'T REALLY CLEARLY DETAILED. BUT, IT'S UNFORTUNATELY JUST THE NATURE OF HOW THIS IS ALL DEVELOPED. ON ONE HAND THERE'S BEEN THIS PATH WHERE WE'VE GONE WITH THE RIGHT OF WAY LICENSE PERMIT, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, AND THERE'S BEEN THE DEVELOPMENT PLAN,

>> THE FENCE IS ANOTHER ISSUE. >> I KNOW THE ISSUE WITH YOUR FENCE, I KNOW ABOUT THAT. IT'S, THERE'S TWO THINGS THAT ARE CONFLICTING AND BUTTING HEADS, HERE, DAVE MADE A PRESENTATION, AND YOU AND I WERE BOTH HERE, I REMEMBER THAT, HE MADE THE PRESENTATION TO COUNCIL, COUNCILMEMBER BROWN, WAS HERE, AND BLAKE WAS HERE, TAMMY, THEY MADE A REQUEST THAT THE CITY, THROUGH DIFFERENT ENGINEERING REVIEW DETERMINED IF IT WAS POSSIBLE TO REROUTE THE MILLER ROAD CONSTRUCTION IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT WOULDN'T BE A DRAMATIC COST INCREASE, BUT THAT IT COULD ALLOW THIS 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY IN THEORY TO REMAIN IN PERPETUITY EVEN IF IT'S STILL A RIGHT-OF-WAY OR WHATEVER. THERE WOULD NEVER BE A TRUE NEED TO RECLAIM IT, BECAUSE THE ROAD WOULD BE ORIENTED IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT WOULDN'T BE AN OBSTACLE ANYMORE. SO, I'M CURIOUS IF ANYTHING CAME OUT OF THAT, THE NEXT TIME THAT THERE ARE ANY NOTES IN YOUR PRESENTATION IS WHEN YOU MET WITH DAVE IN MAY OR JUNE OR JULY. SO, BETWEEN FEBRUARY AND SUMMER, WHAT HAPPENED? DID ANY OF THAT HAPPEN WITH OUR STAFF? JEFF WAS THE CITY ENGINEER AT THE TIME, DID ANYTHING HAPPEN THERE? OR DID THAT JUST FALL ON DEAF EARS?

>> WE KEPT ASKING ABOUT THAT AND WE NEVER GOT A CLEAR ANSWER.

>> I HAVE THE EMAIL WITH KAMI ON THIS ASKING FOR FIVE THINGS.

WHEN I LOOKED AT THE MINUTES FROM THE WORK SESSION I SAID ALL THESE COMMITMENTS THAT WERE MADE, THAT YOU LISTENED TO, THERE'S NONE OF THAT IN THERE, AND I ASKED TO HAVE THE MINUTES OPENED, SO WE COULD ADD THOSE IN, AND THE ITEMS I ASKED TO HAVE PUT IN, I'LL READ THEM TO YOU, SHE CAME BACK AND SAID, CITIZENS DON'T WRITE THE MINUTES. AND SINCE THEN, COUNCIL HAS CHANGED TO WHERE CITIZENS CAN ASK TO HAVE THE MINUTES OPEN, BUT THE THINGS I ASKED, SO WE WOULDN'T RUN INTO THIS TODAY, I WOULD LIKE THE MINUTES OF FEBRUARY 1ST TO REQUEST A CORRECTION OR ADDITION OF ITEM 3C, THE MINUTES NEED TO INCLUDE, ONE, THE CITY MANAGER'S STATEMENTS STATING WHY HE HAD BREACHED STAFFS AGREEMENT TO SUPPORT THE 15 FOOT RESERVATION, TWO, COUNCILMAN BROWN'S STATEMENT THAT THE LICENSE AGREEMENT TO USE THE 15 FEET EXTENDED FOR DECADES INTO THE FUTURE UNTIL THE MILLER ROAD BRIDGE WAS WIDENED. THREE, MR. HOLL'S A STATEMENT OF THE CITY ATTORNEY HAD TREATED HIM WITH DISRESPECT DURING THE ENTIRE PROCESS. FOUR, COUNCIL'S STATEMENT THAT STAFF WAS DIRECTED TO FIND OUT WHEN STORM

[00:50:04]

TIME. SO I HOPE THIS HELPS. >> IT DOES, AND I THINK THE MISCOMMUNICATION WAS THAT, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY MISCOMMUNICATION, WAS THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE A WIDENING OF THAT PORTION OF MILLER ROAD, AND IT WAS MADE NO MENTION OF THE FACT THAT THERE WAS STORM WATER THAT WAS NEEDED ALONG THE NORTHERN SIDE OF MILLER ROAD. SO THAT'S WHERE THE INITIAL DISCUSSION HAPPENED OF NEEDING TO RECLAIM THE RIGHT-OF-WAY AT THAT POINT, BUT THAT NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN.

THEY WERE ABLE TO GET EVERYTHING NECESSARY INSTALLED, ON THE RIGHT PLACE, EVERYTHING FROM COMPLETED, CORRECT?

>> THEY NEVER MOVED ANY POLLS, THEY WENT THROUGH A LOT OF

RIGMAROLE. >> I THINK THE CITY DID A LOT OF WORK TO TRY TO GET THEM AND MAKE SURE WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT.

BECAUSE THE DIRECTIVE FROM COUNCIL WAS WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO MAKE THIS WORK WITHOUT DISRUPTING THAT, WITHOUT DISRUPTING MILLER ROAD AND ULTIMATELY IT WORKED. CREDIT TO STAFF, MORE RECENTLY FOR MAKING THAT HAPPEN. BACK TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTION, WHICH IS, I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW IF THERE'S ANY NECESSITY, OR IF IT WAS EXPLORED OR WHATEVER, TO EVER HAVE TO RECLAIM THAT PROPERTY, BECAUSE THE SITE PLAN, EVERYTHING ELSE DOESN'T SEEM TO INDICATE THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ADJUST THE ROAD FAR TO THE NORTH AND RECLAIM THAT 15 FEET. WHERE WOULD WE, WHERE WOULD WE COME ACROSS NEEDING TO PULL THAT

BACK? >> WHEN YOU SAY PULL THAT BACK ,

>> RECLAIM THE 15 FEET. >> IT'S OURS. BUT IF YOU MEAN

UTILIZE IT WITH THE ROAD? >> LEVERAGE THE TERMINATION OF THE LICENSE AGREEMENT SUCH THAT DAVE NO LONGER HAS LICENSE TO USE THE PROPERTY FOR THE PURPOSES OUTLINED.

>> I'M SORRY, I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING YOUR QUESTION.

>> THAT LICENSE AGREEMENT WAS GOOD UNTIL THE CITY,

>> TILL THE CITY EXPANDS THE ROADWAY.

>> ACTUALLY, IT WAS GOOD BEYOND THAT. HIS ABILITY TO USE THE RIGHT OF WAY, ENDED WHEN WE EXPAND THE ROADWAY.

>> TO ANTICIPATE THE EXPANSION WOULD NECESSITATE US HAVING TO USE THAT PROPERTY FOR SOME PURPOSE?

>> I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT, I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER.

>> GIVEN THAT WAS THE ANSWER. >> GIVEN THE ACTIONS THE CITY DID TO TRY TO REMEDIATE THAT NEED TO EVEN GO.

>> OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION I THINK, FOR ME, THAT'S WHERE I LAND IS, DO WE NEED TO, WITH THE CITY NEED TO UTILIZE THAT 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY FOR ANY PRACTICAL PURPOSE, IF NOT? LET'S FIND A WAY TO REWRITE THE LICENSE AGREEMENT SUCH THAT IT EXTENDS BEYOND, THE WIDENING MILLER ROAD, AND IT COULD BE USED, FOR THAT PURPOSE. WITHOUT HAVING TO COMPLETELY, TRANSFER

OWNERSHIP OR WHATEVER. >> EVEN IF YOU DID, NOBODY HAS A CRYSTAL BALL, THERE WOULD BE A NEED TO HAVE, UTILITIES RUNNING ALONG MILLER ROAD OR RELOCATED OR ANYTHING ELSE, SO THE RIGHT OF WAY IS GOOD TO HAVE. EVEN IF WE DID HAVE SOME FUTURE NEED FOR THAT RIGHT-OF-WAY, THAT DOESN'T PROHIBIT US FROM EXPANDING BEYOND INCLUDING FURNITURE ON THE RIGHT OF WAY. WE CAN STILL GIVE HIM MORE USE THAN THAT. THE LEGAL QUESTION IS, THEN, WHEN WE DO NEED TO COME IN AND USE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, WHO PAYS , DOES HE JUST LOSE WHAT HE'S PUT ON THEIR, OR DO WE PAY FOR THAT?

THAT'S THE ONLY REAL ISSUE. >> THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE DECIDED. WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE GOING TO USE THAT RIGHT-OF-WAY, WHETHER THERE WILL BE A NEED TO PUT SOMETHING ON IT, YOU CAN STILL ALLOW HIM IN THE MEANTIME TO MAKE, THE LARGER CONCRETE PAD, STORAGE, WHATEVER YOU WANT, JUST LIKE WITH EVERY OTHER RIGHT

[00:55:01]

>> AND I GUESS, DAVE, WE APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND THIS IS, I'M NOT CERTAINLY TRYING TO, STONEWALL ANYTHING, IN ANY WAY. MY BIG CONCERN IS, CONTINUES TO BE, THAT, WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO BE REQUIRED, WHEN WE DECIDE AND ARE ABLE TO WIDEN MILLER STREET BRIDGE, SO, TO SAY THAT, IT'S NOT GOING BY THERE, I DON'T KNOW THAT I'M COMFORTABLE, I'M NOT AN ENGINEER, FOR ME, IT IS, WE FIND A WAY THAT DAVE CAN UTILIZE, IN A PRACTICAL WAY, THAT MAKES SENSE FOR HIM, HELPS HIS BUSINESS, I FEEL STRONGLY THAT WE DO HAVE TO MAINTAIN, YOU KNOW, PRETTY MUCH TOTAL CONTROL OF WHAT HAPPENS, WHEN THAT DAY COMES, FOR EXAMPLE IF WE WERE AT OVERKILL, NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, IF WE NEED THAT PROPERTY, WE JUST CREATED OURSELVES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF WORK, AND NEGOTIATION, AND THAT WE CAN ALLEVIATE JUST BY DOING THE THINGS WE'RE DOING, SAY SURE, DAVE, YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT, THERE, YOU CAN USE THAT EASEMENT, IF YOU WANT TO DO IMPROVEMENTS ON IT WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY'RE YOUR IMPROVEMENTS AND IF AT SOME POINT THEY HAVE TO BE MOVED, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT, JUST EVEN WATCHING MILLER BE WIDENED, TO KEEP HOLD OF EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN, SO THAT WHEN THAT PROJECT DOES COME AROUND, WE'VE TAKEN CARE OF EVERYTHING WE NEED TO, AND WE'RE NOT BACKTRACKING, TRYING TO UNDO THINGS, THAT WE DID EARLIER THAT DIDN'T NEED TO BE DONE FROM A PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW.

>> IF YOU NEED THAT 15 FEET IN FRONT OF KAYAK CROSSING OUTPOST, I HAVE ADDITIONAL RIGHT-OF-WAY ON BOTH THE SOUTH AND NORTH SIDE RIGHT NEXT TO THAT YOU'LL NEED ALSO, AND I THINK THE WAY THIS IS, AND I APPRECIATE THE PROFESSIONALISM ON HOW YOU'RE DOING THIS, THIS IS A CHANGE FROM WHAT WE HAD PRIOR, BUT I THINK THIS WOULD SET A BAD PRECEDENT FOR THE WAY THE CITY WENT ABOUT DOING THIS, WITH THE PROMISES, AND I KNOW THEY WEREN'T, SOME OF THEM AREN'T WHAT CITY COUNCIL APPROVED BUT WHEN YOU GET AN EMAIL FROM THE MAYOR, THE CITY MANAGER, THE DEPARTMENT MANAGER, DEVELOPMENT SERVICES AND PARKS DEPARTMENT, I CERTAINLY RELIED ON IT, AND I THINK IT SET A BAD PRECEDENT ON HOW WE ACQUIRE RIGHT-OF-WAY, EMINENT DOMAIN IS OUT THERE, AND LIKE I SAID, I GOT PLENTY OF RIGHT OF WAY AND WE DID THE PHASE TWO, ON THE NORTH SIDE, AND ALL I ASK YOU TO DO IS RETURN IT TO ITS ORIGINAL STATE, BUT, DO I SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD? I THINK THE WAY THIS PROCESS HAS GONE FOR THIS RIGHT-OF-WAY SETS A BAD PRECEDENT THE WAY THE CITY HAS ACTED, SORRY FOR BEING CRITICAL, AND WHEN YOU NEED THAT RIGHT-OF-WAY, I HAVE ON THE NORTH AND SOUTH SIDE,

>> WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO TODAY IS GET TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HIT A RESET ON THESE ISSUES, THE ONLY WAY TO CHANGE THE EXPERIENCES THAT YOU'VE HAD IS TO SET A NEW PRECEDENT GOING FORWARD THE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE DONE IN A PROFESSIONAL MANNER, NOT A BILL OF GOODS THAT WE CAN'T CASH IN ON AT SOME POINT, AND I THINK FOR MY PERSPECTIVE, THAT'S MY CONCERN IS THAT IF WE WRITE A LICENSE AGREEMENT OR IF WE COMPLETELY GIVE YOU A PIECE OF PROPERTY, I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE CITY DOWN THE ROAD, AND IT'S GOING TO SET AN UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION FOR YOU THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO USE THIS IN PERPETUITY OR BASICALLY WHATEVER YOU WANT. IF WE CAN DRAFT A LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR THE PIECE OF PROPERTY THAT GIVES SOME CLEAR DELINEATION, NOT JUST ONE SENTENCE THAT SAYS HERE'S WHAT YOU GET TO USE IT FOR, SOME CLEAR DELINEATION AND SOME CLEAR OWNERSHIP AND RESPONSIBILITIES, AND THAT FRAMEWORK, WILL SET SOME CLEAR STANDARDS FOR THE FUTURE, THAT CAN'T BE MISINTERPRETED BY A MAYOR OR CITY COUNCILMEMBER, OR ANYBODY ELSE BECAUSE IT WILL BE RIGHT THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE,

[01:00:04]

>> AND ENUMERATING THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT, LIKE THE SHADE STRUCTURES. MAYBE NUMBER OF , A HORSESHOE PIT, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO, TRYING TO GUESS WHAT IT MEANS. I THINK THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING, THAT I THINK WOULD BE HELPFUL, IN THIS, AS FAR, DAYLIGHT, MAKING CLARITY, SO THAT REALLY, SO MUCH OF EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED REGARDING YOU, HAS BEEN AMBIGUITY. IT'S HE SAID, SHE SAID, AMBIGUOUS, YEARS PASSED, AND IT GOES ON AND ON. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY, THAT'S WHAT IT IS, LET'S CALL IT WHAT IT IS, LET'S FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO, YOU TELL US WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THAT EASEMENT, SO THAT WE GET AWAY FROM THIS SORT OF NEBULOUS AGREEMENT THAT JUST HAS GONE ON AND ON. SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, THIS WHOLE PROCESS.

>> YOU MENTIONED SHADE SALES, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS PARTICULAR AREA THAT YOU INTEND TO AMEND THE TIES OR UPGRADE FROM WHAT YOU HAD TODAY? THAT YOU KNOW OF TODAY?

>> MY CRYSTAL BALL IS A LITTLE FOGGY.

>> I THINK THAT THE SHADE STRUCTURES WOULD BE USEFUL. AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING RIGHT NOW, I THINK AGAIN, I WANT TO OPEN THIS UP, I THINK WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A.D.A. ACCESS, A.D.A. PARKING, I THINK YOU TAKE A LOOK AT A PLAN FOR ALL OF PADDLE POINT PARK, AND THAT FACILITY WILL NEED A DRIVE GOING OUT, SO ALL THESE THINGS, THE FENCE, THERE'S A FENCE FOR SECURITY, GATES, SIDEWALKS, ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE TIED DOWN SO THAT WE AREN'T, SO WE AREN'T BACK HERE NEXT YEAR OR THE YEAR

AFTER. >> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO COUNCILMEMBER SCHUPP'S POINT, FOR THE CONVERSATION, FOCUS NOW ON THE 15 FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY. SO THAT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY, IF IT MEANS ENHANCED FENCE HEIGHT, AND THAT IN THERE.

IF IT MEANS SHADE STRUCTURES OR SHADE SALES OR SOMETHING, ADD THAT IN THERE. ANYTHING ELSE YOU INTEND TO USE IT FOR IF YOU DON'T HAVE PERMISSION TO USE IT FOR TODAY, WHICH IS OUTDOOR PATIO FURNITURE I THINK IS WHAT IT SAID. THAT'S ALL IT SAYS, ANYTHING ELSE NEEDS TO BE DRAFTED IN THERE SO IT'S

CRYSTAL CLEAR. >> AND I CONCUR WITH, YOU DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL, I WOULD TAKE SOME TIME AND DO A FIVE-YEAR PLAN. AND TRY TO INCORPORATE THOSE, AND WHAT'S PRACTICAL TO BRING THE BETTER EXPERIENCE TO YOUR CUSTOMERS, AND THOSE THAT ARE USING PADDLEBOARD FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS, SO THAT CAN BE DOCUMENTED. SO WE'RE NOT COMING

BACK NEXT YEAR, >> THAT'S MY CONCERN, IS HE'S GOING TO GO THROUGH THIS WHOLE THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THIS DOESN'T OBLIGATE YOU TO PUT THESE THINGS IN. PUTTING ANYTHING THAT YOU MIGHT POSSIBLY,

>> WOULD BE LEGALLY ADVISABLE TO SAY INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO? SO THAT WAY, , JUST

>> I WOULD WORK TO LIMIT ANY AMBIGUITY. AND THEN IF IT NEEDS TO APPLY APPLY. PERHAPS WE MAY THINK BECAUSE OF USE OF THAT SPACE, CERTAINLY THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PUTTING INTO A CONTRACTING LICENSE A LICENSING CONTRACT AND I ALSO THINK TODAY -- MIGHT NOT EVEN BE BIG ENOUGH BUT I THINK THE PROVISIONS OF THE ORDINANCE WOULD STILL ALLOW THOSE THINGS THAT -- IS USE AS A BUSINESS. SO

[01:05:02]

>> THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD GO BEFORE COUNSEL BECAUSE I'VE

SEEN THE NEED FOR THIS -- >> IT SHOULD BE BUT I PROBABLY WILL BRING IT BACK BECAUSE I DON'T WANT SOMEONE TO FEEL LIKE OH MY GOSH, WE DIDN'T CAPTURE WHAT YOU WANT TO ARTICULATE, BUT THAT SAID, THE AGREEMENT ITSELF IS REALLY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

>> THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT IN THE PAST. APPROVE THIS --

>> JUST AS YOU ARE GOING THROUGH YOUR LIST OF POSSIBLE THINGS, ARE THERE TRAINING DEVICES, TRAINING SYSTEM -- THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE INCLUDED IN THIS AREA AS PART OF TRAINING? THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING I WOULD LIKE, IF YOU THINK THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, BECAUSE IT DOES MAKE A BIT OF

DIFFERENCE. >> THE CRYSTAL BALL IS -- I'M JUST SAYING -- KIND OF THINK THAT WAY MORE THAN MAYBE SOME OF THESE OPERATIONAL THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT WANT TO DO WHILE WE ARE DOING IT, LET'S GET -- AS WE CAN.

>> THAT'S WHY I SAID LOOK AT THE QUICK PLAN.

>> IS THIS SOMETHING WE CAN GET BACK BEFORE COUNSEL CHANGES

OVER? >> IT DEPENDS ON DAVE. NEXT

MEETING IS MAY 6TH. >> YEAH. THIS COUNSEL WILL STILL BE SEATED ON THE SIXTH. IF YOU COULD MAKE THIS APPLICATION

ASAP. >> I PREFER TO DO THIS AS AN AMENDMENT TO THIS PERMIT AND THE REASON IS IF I TRY TO DRAFT A NEW AGREEMENT, WE DON'T HAVE THE CONSIDERATION HE HAS GIVEN TO SUPPORT IT SO SOMEBODY IN THE FUTURE FROM THE CITY COULD STRIKE IT AS VOID SO LET'S JUST DO AN AMENDMENT TO THE SYSTEM TO

ADD ALL THESE ADDITIONAL. >> EMAIL TO JEFF?

>> JUST FILL OUT THAT FORM AGAIN LIKE YOU DID BEFORE. PATIO FURNITURE OR WHATEVER YOU LISTED IN THE EXHIBIT, ITEMIZE THE

THINGS THAT YOU WANT. >> WAS THERE A BLOCK ON THERE

FOR PAYING A FEE? >> I'M NOT AWARE YOU ARE

EXEMPT. >> SO --

>> WE WOULD, AS PART OF THE RESOLUTION TO AMEND THE AGREEMENT WE WOULD ALSO ADD THE EXCEPTIONS.

>> YEAH BUT -- YES, I WILL BRING THEM INTO THAT BECAUSE THAT

SERVES AS THE -- >> ALL RIGHT. IS -- I'M -- LET ME SEE IF I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO WAIVE THE FEE. I HEAR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. THIS IS MECHANICS MORE THAN ANYTHING.

>> LET'S NOT FOCUS ON THAT RIGHT NOW. WHEN YOU COMPLETE THE APPLICATION, WHO DO WE WANT THE APPLICATION TO GO TO?

>> COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT OR CHRISTOPH.

>> ADDRESS I'M SURE? >> I AM REAL TECH SAVVY.

>> SEND IT TO ME. IT'S EASY ENOUGH.

>> ARE WE ON A TIMELINE TO HAVE THIS BY MAY 6TH? JUST SO WE ARE

CLEAR ON WHAT OUR -- >> I HAVE -- DELAY THIS.

>> IF I'VE STATED THE OBVIOUS, I APOLOGIZE.

>> ANYMORE -- OKAY. >> WE HAVE ONE MORE ISSUE THAT IS IF WE HAVE TO TAKE THE RIGHT-OF-WAY, AND IS IT PERMISSIBLE FOR THE CITY TO PAY FOR THAT.

>> YOU ARE USING TAXPAYER DOLLARS SO YOU CAN HAVE A VALID REASON -- THE STANDARD. THE STANDARD IS THAT --

>> I JUST THOUGHT I WOULD ASK THE QUESTION. THAT ANSWERS IT.

OKAY. >> ON MY PRESENTATION I HAD TO APPROVE A CABINET PUT TOGETHER FOR THE -- CATHERINE IS HERE NOW. WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE CATHERINE TELL YOU ABOUT THAT

PROGRAM BRIEFLY? >> DOES IT PERTAIN TO THE 15

FOOT RIGHT-OF-WAY? >> IT PERTAINS TO A MONARCH SANCTUARY ALONG WITH MY UNDERPRIVILEGED KIDS THAT GET

[01:10:01]

COLLEGE. MOSTLY FROM SOUTH. >> SO I THINK THAT YEAH. I THINK THAT IS NOT ON THE AGENDA BUT I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT IT.

>> ABSOLUTELY. I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION I WAS ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT SO THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. OH, REALLY? I CAN GIVE YOU LIKE A 62ND SPIEL . IF NOT, THAT IS FINE.

>> IT'S A LEGAL ISSUE. BUT WE DO APPRECIATE YOU COMING OUT.

SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE. BUT HOPEFULLY WE HAVE ASSUAGED SOME OF YOUR CONCERNS AND I WANT TO CLARIFY WHAT COUNCILMEMBER REAVES SAID SECONDS AGO ABOUT ANY ASSETS YOU BUILD ON THE ROBERT HE WOULD BE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY SO IF THE CITY IN THE FUTURE, WHETHER 20 OR 30 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD HAD TO RECLAIM THAT ROADWAY, WIDENING THE ROAD WOULD BE ON YOUR DIME.

>> AND THAT'S HOW IT WAS ORIGINALLY.

>> I JUST TRY TO MAKE THINGS CRYSTAL-CLEAR AND YOU WERE IN A BIT OF A CONVERSATION WHEN THAT WAS SAID AND WHOEVER IS WATCHING THIS, HOPEFULLY NO ONE IS WATCHING THIS 10 YEARS IN THE FUTURE BUT IF SOMEBODY IS HOPEFULLY THEY WON'T HEAR THAT.

>> COUNSEL, ANY MORE QUESTIONS FOR STAFF ON THIS ITEM? LET'S MOVE ON. THANK YOU . WE APPRECIATE YOU.

[4B. Review and consider revising the ordinance regulating home occupations.]

>> I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> MOVING ON TO ITEM 4B. AND I BELIEVE MAKING THIS PRESENTATION IS MY -- YOU SEE THE CLICKER? YOU WANT TO SIT?

>> FROM HERE. OKAY. I PUT THIS ON THE AGENDA BECAUSE I HAVE TO BE LOOKING THROUGH THE ORDINANCES RESPONSIBLE -- CITIZEN AND AS USUAL YOU FIND ALL SORTS OF THINGS. MAYBE IT NEEDS A REVISION. SO THIS IS JUST GOING TO BE A QUICK LITTLE PRESENTATION DISCUSSION, YOU KNOW. YOU KNOW HOW IT -- OKAY.

SUMMARY SHORT FORM, REVISE THE ORDINANCE AND TO ESTABLISH SOME CLEAR DEFINITIONS BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT IS VERY ALL-INCLUSIVE. HOME OCCUPATIONS ARE ALLOWED IN ALL RESIDENTIAL ZONING'S -- YOU GUYS HAVE ALL SEEN A LITTLE CHART IN WHAT ZONES AND ALL OF OUR RESIDENTIAL ZONING'S ALLOW YOU TO ENGAGE IN A HOME OCCUPATION BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF -- FOR ONE, HOME-BASED BUSINESSES MUST REGISTER WITH THE CITY AND THEN THERE CAN BE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THAT SO I DID NOT KNOW THIS BACK WHEN I WAS MAKING MY LIVING WRITING ARTICLES AND BOOKS BUT TECHNICALLY THAT WOULDN'T APPLY TO AN AUTHOR SITTING AT THE COMPUTER. IT WOULD APPLY TO SOMEBODY WHO IS A REMOTE WORKER LIKE MY HUSBAND WHO WORKS FOR MICROSOFT AND OR IT COULD. BECAUSE THERE IS NOT A DEFINITION. IT MIGHT NOT BE -- BECAUSE HE IS EMPLOYED BUT MINE DEFINITELY WOULD HAVE BEEN SO THEY ARE NOT ONLY REQUIRED TO REGISTER, ALSO REQUIRED TO -- OR ARE THEY? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS ON OUR CITY WEBSITE BUT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IN THE LIST ITSELF SO THAT IS CONFUSING. SO WE NEED TO CLEAR THAT UP AND I HOPE WE WILL CLEAR IT UP IN A WAY -- THERE IS NO DEFINITION FOR HOME-BASED BUSINESS. THAT IS JUST KIND OF UP FOR GRABS, WHOMEVER ON THE STAFF IS ENFORCING THIS WOULD BE ABLE TO JUST KIND OF INTERPRET IT HOWEVER THEY WANTED TO. NO EXCLUSIONS, NO EXCEPTIONS PROVIDED, EVEN IF IT'S JUST PART-TIME, EVEN IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU DO ONCE A MONTH, YOU WRITE ONE ARTICLE A MONTH, YOU ARE STILL A BUSINESS

[01:15:03]

YOU HAVE MANY PEOPLE, 16% OF BUSINESSES OPERATE COMPLETELY REMOTELY IN 2024. EVERYBODY IS WORKING FROM HOME. 27 EMPLOYEES NOW ARE IN 2024 WERE HYBRID WORKERS SO THEY WORKED FROM HOME PART OF THE TIME AND WENT INTO THE OFFICE THE OTHER PART AND HYBRID WORKERS DID COME IN ANYWHERE FROM ONE TO FOUR DAYS A WEEK. EVEN OUR CLERK WORKS FROM HOME SOMETIMES I'M SURE. I KNOW YOU DO BECAUSE I DON'T THINK YOU ARE UP HERE -- SO, I -- YOU KNOW, IT HAS CHANGED COMPLETELY. WORKING AT HOME IS VERY CALM -- COMMONPLACE. I'M SURE SOMEBODY ON YOUR STREET NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE WORKS FROM HOME. SO, CONTRIBUTE TO HOME-BASED BUSINESSES, SMALL BUSINESSES, ACTIVITY, ENTREPRENEURSHIP, FREELANCE WORK HAS CERTAINLY EXPLODED IN THE WAKE OF THE PANDEMIC WHEN PEOPLE WEREN'T ABLE TO GET A FULL TIME TRADITIONAL JOBS SO, THEY GOT CREATIVE AND THEY DID THINGS LIKE SELLING THINGS ON EBAY OR AT SEA OR MAKING NICE CRAFTS AND SELLING THEM. THINGS LIKE THAT OR THEY DO THINGS LIKE WEB DESIGN FOR ONLINE MARKETING, CONTENT CREATION, BLAH BLAH BLAH. AND THEN THERE ARE ALSO THE TRADITIONAL HOME-BASED SERVICES LIKE WRITING AND GRAPHIC ARTS AND THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY DO HAVE A PHYSICAL ELEMENT SUCH AS REPAIRS PEOPLE'S COMPUTERS AND APPLIANCES, THINGS LIKE THAT. SO LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF HOME BUSINESSES.

>> CAN I GET A CLARITY HERE BECAUSE IT HAS GONE BACK AND FORTH A LITTLE BIT? THESE I RECOGNIZE AS TRUE HOME-BASED BUSINESSES. THESE ARE THINGS -- PRIVATE IS MRS. OKAY? I SAW SOME REFERENCES TO FOR EXAMPLE, I WORK FOR A COMPANY AND I WORK REMOTELY AND I ALWAYS HAVE. THAT IS NOT -- THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO BE CLEAR? BECAUSE I'M A LITTLE SKETCHY.

>> THE LANGUAGE IN THE ORDINANCE IS HOME OCCUPATION. SO IT IS NOT

DEFINED. >> YEAH BECAUSE THAT NEEDS TO REALLY BE SEPARATED BECAUSE THOSE ARE NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE

SAME THING. >> RIGHT AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO -- THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. WE NEED TO SEPARATE THE TWO.

THAT'S PART OF THE ASK. >> THANK YOU.

>> THAT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY IN THE FUTURE. HOME OCCUPATIONS ARE INCREASING ALL THE TIME. ACTUAL HOME-BASED BUSINESSES ARE RISING. STARTING THEIR OWN BUSINESS, FUTURE GROWTH, THERE'S A PREDICT DID INCREASE AND IT BRINGS OPPORTUNITIES. SO OUR ORDINANCE WAS WRITTEN IN 2006. IT WAS A REALLY DIFFERENT WORLD BACK THEN. ORDINANCE 25-06 REGULATES HOME BUSINESSES OR HOME OCCUPATIONS. THIS WAS ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO AND THESE DAYS 20 YEARS IS LIKE A WHOLE DIFFERENT -- SO WAS ADOPTED PRE-PANDEMIC -- WORK FROM HOME AND THIS ORDINANCE NOT ONLY PUTS A BURDEN ON THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING AT HOME, IT ALSO PUTS A BURDEN ON CITY STAFF IF IT WERE TO BE ENFORCED THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE SO MANY IN HOME-BASED BUSINESSES OUT THERE THAT YOU WOULD BE REGISTERING PEOPLE AND ISSUING ALL DAY LONG. THERE IS NO FEE THAT GOES ALONG WITH THE REGISTRATION SO WE ARE NOT EVEN GETTING ANY MONEY FROM IT AND I DON'T SUPPORT CHARGING A FEE FOR HOME-BASED WORKERS TO REGISTER. SO, BIG BURDEN ON CITY STAFF. I BELIEVE THE INTENT OF THE ORIGINAL LEGISLATION WAS TO ENSURE THAT BUSINESSES DON'T

[01:20:04]

>> USING HAZARDOUS MATERIAL. >> CERTAINLY PROBABLY ONE OPERATING NEIGHBORHOODS ANYWAY BUT IF WE DID HAVE -- WE WOULD CERTAINLY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT AND KNOW THAT IT WAS THERE. SO I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT DOING AWAY WITH REGISTRATION BUT I AM TALKING ABOUT WRITING EXCLUSIONS INTO THE ORDINANCE THAT WOULD EXCLUDE THE TYPES OF BUSINESSES THAT DON'T IMPACT THE NEIGHBORHOOD, DON'T PRESENT SAFETY ISSUES, THAT BASICALLY GOT SOMEBODY -- NOT CREATING ANY MORE IMPACT ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAN SOMEONE SITTING AT HOME WATCHING TV OR PETTING THEIR DOG. THE FINANCIAL BUDGET IMPLICATIONS ACTUALLY WILL REDUCE THE STAFF TIME AND SO POSSIBLY EVEN, THEY ARE NOT REALLY ENFORCING THIS SO IT'S GOING TO BE AWASH. BUT IT WOULD BE, WE HAVE MOST OF THE BUSINESSES ARE OPERATING APARTMENTS BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS THEY ARE THERE. BUT THEY ARE STILL TECHNICALLY IN VIOLATION SO WHY DON'T WE CLEAN IT UP AND MAKE THEM TECHNICALLY NOT IN VIOLATION SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE AN ORDINANCE THAT COULD BE POSSIBLY COME A I'M NOT SAYING OUR STAFF WOULD DO THIS BUT IT WOULD HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BE ENFORCED SELECTIVELY IF SOMEBODY CAME ALONG -- SO, MY REQUEST IS FOR THE CITY ATTORNEY TO LOOK AT THAT ORDINANCE. I THINK YOU PROBABLY ALREADY LOOKED AT IT SOME AND COME BACK AND WITHIN RESPONSE TO OUR DISCUSSION HERE AND COME BACK WITH SOME EXCLUSIONS FOR COMMUTERS AND HOME BUSINESSES THAT HAVE -- AND THAT'S JUST KIND OF A SUMMARY OF THE CURRENT SITUATIONS, HOME OCCUPATION MANDATORY OCCUPANCY AS STATED ON THE WEBSITE. THESE ARE SOME OF -- THIS IS ALSO IN THE ORDINANCE, SOME OTHER CRITERIA WITHIN THE DWELLING OR ACCESSORY BUILDING, ACCESSORY BUILDINGS ARE -- ISSUE THESE GUYS AND STATE -- SOME STATE LAWS THAT AFFECT THAT BUT THEY ARE IN BILLS RIGHT NOW BUT IT CAN'T EXCEED 20% OF THE COMBINED FLOOR AREA AND THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS, RIGHT? 500 SQUARE FEET, MAXIMUM OF -- IT DOESN'T SAY 500 SQUARE FEET OR LESS IT JUST SAYS FOUR OR 500 SQUARE FEET SO IT'S LIKE YOU CAN PICK ONE. WE NEED TO CLARIFY THAT AND WE NEED TO DECIDE WHETHER, IS THAT 500 SQUARE FEET IS NOT THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF A 4000 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE. SO, DO WE WANT TO HAVE THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE IN THERE AT ALL AND JUST SAY PERCENTAGE OF THE FLOOR AREA.

ALSO PRINCIPAL PERSON WHO RUNS THE BUSINESS OWNS THE BUSINESS, HAS TO RESIDE AT THE HOUSE. BUSINESS AND THEY ARE ONLY REQUIRED TO HAVE ONE NONRESIDENT EMPLOYEE. SO THE IMPLICATION OF THAT IS IF YOU HAVE OTHER PEOPLE LIVING IN THE HOUSE, THEY CAN ALL BE EMPLOYEES BUT ONLY ONE FROM OUTSIDE THE HOUSE IN RELATION TO PARKING. AND THEN THERE IS A SECTION ABOUT AVAILABILITY WHICH SAYS THE BUSINESS SHOULD -- EXISTING BUILDINGS AND STRUCTURES EXTERIOR -- SHOULDN'T INDICATE THE HOME OCCUPATION SO TECHNICALLY THAT WOULD MEAN YOU

[01:25:02]

>> COUNSEL, QUESTIONS. >> I HAVE A QUESTION FOR OUR CITY ATTORNEY AND THAT IS THIS WOULD BE A ZONING ORDINANCE,

CORRECT? OR WOULD IT? >> I DON'T THINK IT'S IN THE ZONING ORDINANCE. YES. YEAH. I TAKE IT BACK.

>> SO THIS WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH PUBLIC HEARING, PMC, NOTICE, ALL OF THAT. I WONDER IF THERE IS A MECHANISM BY WHICH THIS COULD BE -- AND JUST HAVE IT BE ALL-INCLUSIVE? TO ME THERE IS NOT URGENCY TO DO THIS SIMPLY BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN ISSUE.

>> RIGHT. IT'S JUST THE KIND OF CLEANUP THING.

>> SURE. AND THAT'S A CLEANER, MORE FLUID MECHANISM RATHER THAN SPENDING MONEY TO NOTICE IT AND DO IT.

>> SINGULAR PURPOSE MECHANISM. >> I DON'T FOLLOW WITH THAT. I

JUST WANTED TO GET OUT. >> I'M SURE THERE'S PROBABLY ALMOST EVERY CITY IN TEXAS IF NOT THE NATION HAS SOME SORT OF CODE IN THERE ABOUT THIS AND PROBABLY -- AS WELL. EXACTLY.

>> ARE YOU MEANING WITH -- DO YOU MEET WITH HIM?

>> WE START NEXT WEEK. NEXT TUESDAY.

>> THAT YOU ARE NOT? >> NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.

>> I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO EVERY TIME, BUT I THINK IT MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA FOR THE ATTORNEY TOO.

>> WE CAN JUST UP DATE. >> I'M SURE WE WILL.

>> I THINK IT REALLY SERIOUSLY -- 2006 TO NOW, 20 YEARS, THERE'S A LOT THAT HAS CHANGED IN HOW WE WORK AND WHERE WE WORK AND EVERYTHING ELSE. SO I FULLY SUPPORT THE MAJOR REVISION.

>> JUST ONE THING. THIS JUST -- ME TALKING, I'M NOT SAYING ANYONE HAS TO AGREE OR NOT BUT THE DISCUSSIONS OF HOW THE NEIGHBORHOOD IMPACT SOME OF THESE -- KIND OF VAGUE, IS ANYBODY AVAILABLE OR FEEL LIKE MAYBE WE NEED TO DIVE A LITTLE DEEPER IN WHAT TRULY ARE PROHIBITED BUSINESSES? WE SORT OF HAVE SOME GUIDELINES HERE BUT I'M TALKING ABOUT THINGS PARTICULARLY THAT YOU CAN'T -- SERVICE COMPANIES, ELECTRICAL SERVICE COMPANIES, YOU KNOW, CHUCK AND A TRUCK LANDSCAPE KIND OF COMPANIES YOU CAN RUN OUT OF YOUR HOUSE, THESE SORT OF SMALL CONTRACTOR TYPE BUSINESSES THAT CAN'T -- I DON'T WANT IS A PROBLEM. THE REALITY WITH THEM, I'VE GOT ONE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, IS AS RESPECTABLE OR RESPONSIBLE AS THEY TRY TO BE, THEY STILL ARE WHAT THEY ARE. THEY ARE TESTING MOWERS AT 3:00 OR 6:00 IN THE MORNING, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE CERTAIN JUST FUNCTIONS YOU HAVE TO DO TO OPERATE THAT KIND OF BUSINESS AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE EXCLUSIONS ARE ROBUST ENOUGH THAT WE DON'T END UP KIND OF ACCIDENTALLY OPENING A DOOR WHERE WE MAKE IT A LITTLE TOO WIDE FOR THINGS THAT MAY BE

TECHNICALLY WOULD -- >> THAT'S WHY I SAID WE NEED TO DEFINE CLEARLY WHAT QUALIFIES AS A HOME OCCUPATION VERSUS A COMMERCIAL OCCUPATION, SOMEBODY OPERATING OUT OF THAT HOME.

>> YEAH AND AGAIN, TO THE POINT OF MAYBE ENUMERATING SPECIFICALLY -- YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET ALL OF THEM BUT YOU CAN PROBABLY GET A PRETTY GOOD -- SO THAT WOULD BE MY ONLY

[01:30:02]

>> ALSO PERHAPS SOME LANGUAGE THAT WOULD -- COULD BE USED -- BECAUSE LIKE YOU SAID WE WON'T GET ALL OF THEM SO SOME LANGUAGE THAT WOULD BE MORE GENERAL TO LIMIT WHAT THE DEFINITION IS OR AN EXCLUDED HOME-BASED BUSINESS.

>> AND THIS IS THE ISSUE, YOU KNOW, MOST CITIES YOU PROHIBIT CERTAIN USES THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON RESIDENCES. SO THOSE ARE ONE END. THOSE ARE EXCLUDED. THOSE ARE NOT CONSIDERED. THEY ARE PROHIBITED. SO THEN EVERYTHING ELSE, WE TAKE OFF THE OTHER END ALSO WHERE THEY ARE SO NEGLIGIBLE, I DOUBT THEY EVEN QUALIFY OR YOU ARE NOT REALLY BASED THERE BECAUSE YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AN EMPLOYER WHO IS BASED SOMEWHERE ELSE SO THEN IT'S KIND OF -- IN THE MIDDLE

WOULD BE REGISTER. >> YES AND THAT'S WHERE YOU REGISTER. OPERATING A SALON OUT OF YOUR HOUSE OR, YOU KNOW, PIANO LESSONS OR, I DON'T KNOW BUT THAT'S UP TO YOU.

>> I WILL SAY ONE THING, I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF Y'ALL HAVE EXPERIENCED THIS BUT WE HAD A -- SOME NEIGHBORS LIVED ACROSS THE STREET, THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY RUNNING SOME KIND OF WEB BASED PRODUCT BUSINESS TO THE POINT THERE WERE, I MEAN IT WASN'T LIKE THREE PACKAGES A DAY, THERE WAS A BOX TRUCK PULLED UP, NOT

NECESSARILY PALLETS BUT -- >> IT WAS AN AMAZON DISTRIBUTION

POINT? >>, I DON'T KNOW. IT WOULD BE 60 BOXES OR SOMETHING. SO, JUST SORT OF THROWING THAT OUT.

SOMETHING TO CONSIDER AS WE ARE DOING IT AND REALLY A PROBLEM TO FIT THAT AND IMPACT, MAYBE IT CAN'T BE IN THE FRONT, WHATEVER. BUT THAT IS SORT OF A SOFT HOME-BASED BUSINES EXCEPT FOR THE AMOUNT OF -- SO AS YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT YOU MIGHT

CONSIDER. >> I HOPE WHEN WE ADDRESS THIS,

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW. >> YEAH, TO THAT POINT, THE INTENT TO DELINEATE CATEGORIES AND TYPES OF BUSINESSES THAT ARE WITHIN SCOPE OUT SCOPE COME OF THOSE THAT HAVE TO REGISTER, THOSE THAT WE ARE NOT WORRIED ABOUT, SO HOW GRANULAR COULD WE

OR SHOULD WE GET WITH THAT? >> WELL, I LIKE THE -- I THINK WE DEFINE IMPACT AND THAT HELPS US RATHER THAN LIKE THE COUNCILMEMBER SAID, LISTING EVERY SINGLE ONE.

>> SO THAT'S OUR BAROMETER? >> I THINK SO. THAT'S THE

REASON -- >> WHERE WE CAN, WE SHOULD BECAUSE THERE'S GOING TO BE BUSINESSES --

>> WE SHOULD LIST THE BUSINESSES?

>> TO TRY TO IDENTIFY THOSE -- THAT ARE PROHIBITED, THOSE THAT CLEARLY DON'T RISE TO THE LEVEL OF A BONA FIDE COMMERCIAL

BUSINESS OR WHATEVER. >> WE WANT TO LIST THE ONES

ABOVE? >> YEAH. I THINK SO.

>> SO -- >> IT MAY GET A LITTLE BIG.

>> I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM. INEVITABLY YOU ARE GOING TO MISS

SOMETHING OR IT >> THAT'S THE PROBLEM THAT YOU MISS THINGS AND THEY COME BACK AND SAY --

>> I GUESS HOPEFULLY THEN THE CATCHALL IS WE SAY WE DON'T HAVE ADVERSE IMPACT SO THAT'S THE --

>> THIS, THIS, THIS. >> YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY SMELLS, IMPACT TRAFFIC IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, IMPOSE ON THE REST

OF THE NEIGHBORS -- >> IF YOU CAN SAY THIS BUSINESS AND OTHERS THAT CREATE PARKING OBSTRUCTIONS --

>> INCREASE TRAFFIC. >> NOISE.

>> THAT'S A -- WHEN YOU SAY INCREASE TRAFFIC, ONE MORE CAR IS INCREASED TRAFFIC. I AGREE. BUT ONE MORE CAR IS INCREASED TRAFFIC. YOU HAVE TO JUST -- I DO. BUT, THE LAY OF THE LAW IS

THE LAW AND SO -- >> BUT THAT'S HOW WE ARE GOING

TO GET THE ATTORNEY. >> IF YOU'VE GOT A BUNCH OF BOX TRUCKS COMING TO YOUR DOOR, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS, I GUESS THEY WERE DROPPING OFF PACKAGES? PICKING UP AND DROPPING THINGS? THAT'S A LOT DIFFERENT THAN HAVING A COUPLE

[01:35:03]

>> TOTALLY. OKAY. >> AND I THINK IT'S SOMETHING

FOR THE COMMITTEE. >> SO WE GO ON BACK TO THAT.

GENTLEMEN? I GUESS THE BALL IS IN YOUR COURT.

>> JUST KEEP IN MIND -- CONSIDERS THAT CATCHALL LANGUAGE IS IN THERE. YOU NEED TO ANTICIPATE THAT STAFF WILL MAKE THAT DECISION AND SOMEBODY WILL WANT TO APPEAL. ADJUSTMENT. AND

THEN IT'S OUT OF YOUR HANDS. >> OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THE PRESENTATION. THANK YOU FOR THAT. IT'S GREAT. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? ON THIS ITEM? EXCELLENT. WE WILL MOVE ON TO

ITEM 4 C. SORRY? >> NO, I THINK THAT WAS IT. I

[4C. Discuss a proposal allowing Metro Fire Apparatus Specialist, LLC (Metro Fire) to evaluate opportunities for the sale of the Spartan 105’ Tractor-Drawn Aerial Truck (tiller truck), to align department apparatus with current need.]

>> YOU ARE OVER HERE WORKING? >> ITEM 4 C, LLC, METRO FIRE TO EVALUATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE SALE OF FIVE FOOT TRACTOR AERIAL TREK TO ALIGN APPARATUS WITH CURRENT NEEDS. THAT PRESENTATION

IS FIRE CHIEF TIM. >> DO YOU WANT ME TO WAIT FOR COUNCILMEMBER

>>> WE WILL RECONVENE OUR WORK SESSION. WE ARE ON ITEM 4 C.

>> GOOD EVENING, COUNSEL, THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH YOU TONIGHT. I WANT TO DISCUSS THE -- AND REALLY A PROPOSAL FOR THE SALE OF THE TILLER TRUCK IN EXCHANGE FOR TWO -- THAT BETTER ALIGN WITH THE OPERATIONAL NEED. I WILL START WITH A LITTLE BACKGROUND. ON OCTOBER 11, 2022 CITY COUNCIL APPROVED A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING PURCHASE OF A SPARTAN 105 FOOT TRACTOR DRAWN AERIAL OTHERWISE KNOWN AS THE TILLER TRUCK. THE COST OF THE APPARATUS WITH THE EQUIPMENT IS LISTED AT 186,000 . WHEN IT WAS LISTED IT WAS SPECIFIC TO THE OPERATIONAL NEEDS OF -- DEVELOPMENT WITH THE PRIMARY FOCUS BEING MANEUVERABILITY IN AND AROUND THE EXPECTED OF ELEMENT AT THAT TIME. THE APPARATUS WAS SET TO BE DELIVERED IN FEBRUARY OR MARCH OF 2025 AND THIS INCLUDED THE TWO YEAR BUILD TIME WHICH IS STANDARD FOR CUSTOM AND SPECIALIZED APPARATUS AND TWO TO THREE MONTHS FOR MAKEREADY WHICH IS A PORTION OF ACTUALLY GETTING THE EQUIPMENT READY TO BE PUT IN SERVICE AND THAT IS WHERE THEY ADD OUR RADIOS AND CALMS AND CABINETS AND OTHER FEATURES THAT WE NEED. SO, STAFF IS CONSTANTLY ASSESSING OUR APPARATUS TO MAKE SURE THEY ALIGNED WITH WHAT WE NEED AND AS THE DEADLINE FOR THE TILLER TRUCK DELIVERY KIND OF APPROACHED IT BECAME MORE AND MORE APPARENT THAT THIS REALLY DIDN'T FIT WHAT WE -- THE NEEDS OF THE ORGANIZATION AND IN A LOT OF WAYS COULD HAMPER OUR OPERATION BECAUSE IT WAS FORCING US TO ADJUST RESPONSE PATTERNS AND WHAT EQUIPMENT WE WERE PUTTING IN STATIONS TO TRY TO ACCOMMODATE FOR AND SO ARMED WITH THIS INFORMATION WE APPROACHED THE CITY MANAGER AND REALLY REQUESTED THE POSSIBILITY OF SELLING OR EXCHANGING THIS TRUCK FOR VEHICLES THAT MORE ALIGNED WITH OUR CURRENT NEEDS SO ONCE WE WERE GIVEN THE OKAY, WE APPROACHED METRO FIRE ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF SELLING THE TILLER TRUCK IN EXCHANGE FOR AS I MENTIONED THE TWO SPARTAN S1 80 PUMPERS. THIS IS NOT A NORMAL THING FOR SURE. DEFINITELY NOT A PRACTICE THAT DEPARTMENTS ARE USED YOU BUT METRO REALLY AGREED TO EVALUATE THIS FOR US AND TO SEE HOW FEASIBLE IT WAS. SO AS WE BEGAN TO PEEL BACK THE LAYERS OF THE PROCESS WE IDENTIFIED SOME CHALLENGES. THE FIRST BEING FINDING A BUYER. MADE TO OUR SPECIFICATIONS. THE MARKET FOR TILLER TRUCK IS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY NARROW AND THE MARKET FOR THOSE WITH PUMPS ON THEM IS EVEN MORE. CONFINED. BUT METRO FEELS REALLY GOOD ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF US BEING ABLE TO FIND A BUYER FOR THIS VEHICLE. ALSO WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT FROM THE SALE VERSUS THE COST OF A NEW APPARATUS SO YOU WILL SEE IN THE PROPOSAL THAT I ADDED A COUPLE SLIDES AND WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO NARROW THAT DOWN QUITE A BIT. SO THAT REALLY WE ARE NOT -- THERE IS NOT A HUGE DIFFERENCE. WE ARE CONCERNED

[01:40:04]

THE CURRENT ESTIMATED BASELINE FOR THE TILLER TRUCK IS $17,000 PER YEAR AND THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE TIRES. IT DOESN'T INCLUDE MINOR REPAIRS THAT ARE JUST PART OF NORMAL WEAR AND TEAR BY WAY OF COMPARISON OUR CURRENT AERIAL APPARATUS COSTS $10,000 PER YEAR OF MAINTENANCE BASED ON MAINTNANCE COSTS SO YOU SEE THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF DIFFERENCE AND A PUMPER ISN'T A MUST ON THAT IT'S ABOUT IT THOUSAND SO AS PART OF THIS METRO FIRE AGREED NOT TO CHARGE ANY PERCENTAGES FOR THE SALE OF THE TRUCK WHICH IS GOOD. THEY HAVE ALSO AGREED TO HOUSE THIS PROCESS AND THE VEHICLE AS WE MOVE FORWARD AND AS I MENTIONED EARLIER THEY ARE GOING TO MAINTAIN INSURANCE ON IT SO IF WE LOOK AT THE PROPOSAL, DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE UPPER RIGHT CORNER, 2,186,000 IS THE ORIGINAL SALES PRICE FOR THE TILLER TRUCK. YOU WILL SEE A SERIES OF DEDUCTIONS AS YOU ARE MOVING DOWN ULTIMATELY GETTING ENGINES OF 1,880,000 $805 AND SOME OF THESE DEDUCTIONS, THEIR DIRECT COST THAT METRO IS GOING TO ABSORB AS A PART OF THIS BUT THE REAL NUMBER IS THE 277,000.

IT'S A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER AND WE REALIZE THAT. ALL OF THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY A LOSS TO THE CITY. THE LOST PORTION IS ABOUT 42,000 AND WE CAN'T GET BACK BECAUSE IT IS CABINETS, TOOL HOLDERS, HARD MOUNTED FEATURES TO A TRUCK AND TO TAKE THEM OFF WOULD ACTUALLY CREATE MORE PROBLEMS WITH THE SALE. THE REMAINING 235,000 IS EQUIPMENT THAT THE CITY WILL OWN AND RETAIN SO A VAST MAJORITY OF THAT WILL GO ON TO THE VEHICLES. THERE IS SOME SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT WITH THE TILLER THAT WE WILL ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO MOVE AND PUT ON OTHER APPARATUS SO THAT WE DON'T LOSE THAT OPERATIONAL FUNCTIONALITY. SO REALLY IT'S, WE ARE NOT LOSING THE 235,000, IT IS BEING REALLOCATED TO THIS APPARATUS AND SO IF YOU WILL LOOK YOU WILL NOTICE THE COST OF THE TWO SPARTAN PUMPERS IS 1,960,000. IF YOU LOOK AT THAT, A DIFFERENCE OF CREDIT APPLIED -- DIFFERENCE OF 80,000, METRO FIRE HAS AGREED TO COVER AND ABSORB THIS COST WHICH IS HUGE. SO THAT EFFECTIVELY MAKES THE BASELINE COST OF THE TWO THE SAME AS THE CREDIT THAT WE WOULD GET -- UTILITY TRUCK. SO THE COST WE

[01:45:01]

WHERE WE MOUNT OUR EQUIPMENT. >> THAT IS TO MAKE READY FOR THE

NEW UNIT? >> CORRECT AND THAT IS 60,000 PER UNIT MOUNTING THE RADIOS, ANTENNAS, HEADSET SYSTEMS, THE HARD CABINETS THAT WE NEED AND THE SHELVING FOR THE TOOLS AND EQUIPMENT. SO REALLY IF YOU LOOK AT THAT, THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE OF 120,000 SO THE ACTION WE ARE LOOKING FOR HERE TONIGHT IS LOOKING FOR CONSENSUS FROM CITY COUNCIL TO ALLOW METRO FIRE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE SALE AND TO REALLOCATE THOSE FUNDS FOR THE PURCHASE OF THE DEPARTMENT AND WITH THAT I AM HAPPY TO TAKE

ANY QUESTIONS YOU GUYS HAVE. >> NO PICTURES. I WANTED TO SEE.

>> YEAH, SO I AGREE. I DID HAVE A QUESTION SINCE WE DID BY THE TILLER SPECIFIC TO THE NEEDS -- DO WE HAVE ANY SHORTFALLS OF

SERVICE AS A RESULT? >> WE WILL NOT. THE MAJORITY -- AND I APPRECIATE THE QUESTION, THE MAJORITY OF THE CALLS THAT THIS -- THE ENGINE WILL RUN ON CAN BE HANDLED BY -- IN FACT I WOULD TELL YOU THAT IT'S BETTER TO NOT HAVE -- AS YOUR PRIMARY RESPONSE DOWN THERE BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME -- THAT FIRST IS GOING TO BE ON STANDBY OR SUPPORTING FIRE DEPARTMENT -- IT STILL GIVES YOU SOME FLEXIBILITY. WE WILL ACTUALLY

HAVE AN AREA. >> I CAN'T REMEMBER -- ALL THE DETAILS BUT WHAT WAS THE PRIMARY DRIVER WHEN WE THOUGHT WE NEEDED

THE TILLER? >> THE PRIMARY DRIVER WAS THE MANEUVERABILITY. I CAN'T SPEAK TO ALL OF THE VARIABLES THAT WERE IN THERE BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE ABILITY TO MANEUVER IN THAT SPACE WAS ONE OF THE PRIMARY DRIVERS AND THE TILLER HAS SOME FUNCTIONALITY BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE MORE FUNCTIONALITY THAN A BASIC -- IN TERMS OF OPERATION.

>> WHY IS METRO FIRE BEING SO NICE TO US? I WANT TO DO

BUSINESS. >> TRUTHFULLY, WE ARE A GOOD CUSTOMER. WE HAVE A GOOD ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP AND I THINK TRULY THEY ARE ENGAGED WITH TRYING TO SOLVE A PROBLEM

THAT THEY HAVEN'T SOLVED. SO, >> IN YOUR OPINION, CHIEF, THE TRUCK THAT WE HAVE WILL BE ABLE TO NAVIGATE THE STREETS THROUGH

SAPPHIRE BAY? >> THE TOWER TRUCK WILL BE ABLE TO MANEUVER THROUGH -- THAT ARE SMALLER. THE PLAN IS TO ACTUALLY STAFF THE ENGINE DOWN THERE BUT WHERE WE ANTICIPATE HAVING THE -- SO WE ALSO HAVE A LADDER THROUGH WHICH IS A SMALLER 75 FOOT SHORTER AND THAT WILL BE --

>> THE TWO NEW TRUCKS THAT WE WOULD BE REPLACING , WITH THOSE REPLACE EXISTING APPARATUS OR ARE THOSE NEW ADDITIONS?

>> THE TILLER WAS A NEW ADDITION TO THE FLEET. ONE OF THOSE WOULD REPLACE OR WOULD BE THE DIRECT REPLACEMENT FOR THE TILLER SO THE OTHER ONE WOULD REPLACE ENGINE 2 WHICH IS THE NEXT THING WE DO IN OUR REPLACEMENT SCHEDULE.

>> AND IS THAT IN -- WOULD THAT BE REPLACED IMMEDIATELY UPON ARRIVAL OF THE NEW ENGINE OR IS THAT ENGINE STILL IN USE?

>> NO, WE WILL ACTUALLY WHEN WE MOVE THAT INTO RESERVE STATUS AND SO THEN THE MOVEMENT WILL CAUSE US OR ALLOW US TO REMOVE ONE OF OUR RESERVE APPARATUS PARTICULARLY ONE DOING ENGINE

REBUILD. >> SO WE ARE NOT ADDING AN

ADDITIONAL? >> CORRECT.

>> YES, BUT I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT 2 GOING TO BE

REPLACED. >> WELL --

>> THE TILLER WAS NEW. >> WE ARE GETTING -- SO WE ARE GETTING 2 BASICALLY FOR THE PRICE OF ONE. WE ARE REPLACING EARLY REPLACEMENT OF ONE THAT IS GOING TO GO INTO RESERVE. DOES THAT MEAN LONG-TERM WE ARE AHEAD OF SCHEDULE?

>> GOOD QUESTION. THAT WAS SCHEDULED TO BE REPLACED NEXT YEAR, THE 26TH BUDGET SO IT KIND OF PUTS US ON TIME FOR THAT REPLACEMENT. WE DO HAVE OTHER UNITS THAT ARE IN NEED OF

[01:50:06]

>> SO NOT NECESSARILY $1 MILLION IN 2026 BUT --

>> ACTUALLY IT IS SAVING YOU MONEY IN 2026.

>> ALL RIGHT, THAT'S GOOD. >> I RESPECT THAT. I GET IT.

OKAY. LONG TERM, THIS IS A GOOD FINANCIAL PLAN AS WELL.

>> SO THIS WOULD BE END-OF-THE-YEAR WHEN THESE GO

INTO EFFECT? >> OR THAN LIKELY IT WILL BE 2026 BECAUSE I WON'T BE ABLE TO TAKE -- IF THEY CAN SELL THE TRUCK UNTIL PROBABLY NOVEMBER OR AFTER JANUARY OR FEBRUARY.

>> I WOULD IMAGINE METRO FIRE IS PROBABLY WILLING TO DO US A SOLID BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE A TRUCK THAT'S READY TO GO IN

MONTHS INSTEAD OF YEARS. >> YEAH. BUT IF THEY DON'T, HOW LONG ARE THEY WILLING TO LET THIS GO ON FOR BEFORE THEY SAY

HEY, NO ONE IS BUYING? >> THEY HAVE ASKED US FOR SIX

MONTHS TO BE ABLE TO SELL IT. >> CHIEF, THE $236,000 WORTH OF EQUIPMENT, I KNOW YOU MENTIONED MOST OF THAT WILL BE ABLE TO BE TRANSFERRED NEW APPARATUS, SOME SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT ACROSS DEPARTMENT APPARATUS BECAUSE IT CAN'T ACCOMMODATED. HOW MUCH OF THAT IS GOING TO GO SIT ON A SHELF SOME WHERE VERSUS HOW MUCH OF IT IS GOING TO BE PUT TO USE? I'M GLAD TO HEAR THAT.

>> THE ACTUAL -- WITH THE ORDER OF THE TILLER TRUCK THERE'S A BASELINE ENGINE COMPLEMENT SO THAT WILL GO DIRECTLY ONTO THE ENGINES. WE WILL HAVE TO PUT ON ONE OF OUR OTHER APPARATUS OPERATIONALLY BUT ALL OF THE EQUIPMENT WILL BE UTILIZED.

THERE IS NOTHING -- YOU LOOK AT THE MAP AND IT SOUNDS LIKE A TREMENDOUS LOSS AND THERE IS A GOOD CHUNK OF IT THAT IS RECYCLED . THE COST WAS $18,000, 2000 PER PERSON IT'S 12,000.

TWO SEPARATE TRIPS. >> THERE'S A PRE-BUILD TRIP WHERE -- ALSO NO FINAL INSPECTION SO THERE IS NO ASSOCIATED OR

ADDITIONAL COST. ALL RIGHT. >> ONE LAST QUESTION, I KNOW YOU WEREN'T CHIEF WHEN THIS WAS ORDERED, IS THERE ANY LESSONS LEARNED SO THAT WE DON'T ORDER THE WRONG STUFF GOING FORWARD?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE INTENT -- IN THE ORDERING OF THAT TRUCK SO I THINK THERE'S ONE WAY TO LOOK AT A PROBLEM AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE I AM TODAY. TRYING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM SO THAT LONG-TERM WE AREN'T STUCK WITH A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT THAT IS MORE CHALLENGING.

>> THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW. >> COUNSEL, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? EVERYBODY AN AGREEMENT TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS POTENTIAL TRANSACTION? ALL RIGHT. I THINK THAT GIVES YOU WHAT YOU NEED.

[5. DISCUSS CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS FOR APRIL 15, 2025 CITY COUNCIL MEETING.]

>> JUST FOR PUBLIC INFORMATION?

>> IT'S PRETTY CLEAR WHAT THAT'S FOR. SOME KIND OF -- IT'S GOOD TO HAVE THAT DESCRIPTION.

>> ALL RIGHT, WE WILL PULL 6C FOR PRESENTATION. ANY OTHER ITEMS?

* This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.